1 00:00:11,020 --> 00:00:09,169 on this episode of skeptical if you go 2 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:11,030 to the website there's this big picture 3 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:13,370 prominently displayed of this guy 4 00:00:19,220 --> 00:00:17,010 completely outfitted in this satanic 5 00:00:22,010 --> 00:00:19,230 kind of thing right so it's the thing 6 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:22,020 hey man it's cool we're all atheists you 7 00:00:25,790 --> 00:00:23,970 know you want to sign this little pact 8 00:00:28,220 --> 00:00:25,800 with Satan it doesn't mean anything 9 00:00:30,470 --> 00:00:28,230 right go ahead sign it you know you want 10 00:00:32,330 --> 00:00:30,480 to perform these rituals hey we're all 11 00:00:35,209 --> 00:00:32,340 atheists it doesn't mean anything right 12 00:00:37,370 --> 00:00:35,219 I mean there's a real mismatch here that 13 00:00:39,590 --> 00:00:37,380 I don't think has drawn enough attention 14 00:00:41,420 --> 00:00:39,600 from the technocrat controller 15 00:00:43,490 --> 00:00:41,430 perspective I mean they're very aware of 16 00:00:46,580 --> 00:00:43,500 the fact that atheism and materialism 17 00:00:50,029 --> 00:00:46,590 and reductionism are not they don't have 18 00:00:51,709 --> 00:00:50,039 the power to hold human belief for very 19 00:00:53,119 --> 00:00:51,719 long because they're not fulfilling 20 00:00:55,549 --> 00:00:53,129 their empty and so humans are always 21 00:00:57,110 --> 00:00:55,559 going to be moving towards the 22 00:00:59,029 --> 00:00:57,120 transcendent now from their vantage 23 00:01:00,709 --> 00:00:59,039 point whether they acknowledge the 24 00:01:02,569 --> 00:01:00,719 belief in the transcendent you know 25 00:01:05,590 --> 00:01:02,579 whether they're just still rank atheists 26 00:01:08,210 --> 00:01:05,600 and materialists or agnostic or actual 27 00:01:10,399 --> 00:01:08,220 Luciferians or some form of a cultist 28 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:10,409 you know regardless I think from their 29 00:01:14,660 --> 00:01:11,610 vantage point pragmatically speaking 30 00:01:16,370 --> 00:01:14,670 they view human psychology that way that 31 00:01:18,530 --> 00:01:16,380 humans are just going to be worshiping 32 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:18,540 something stay with us 33 00:01:21,770 --> 00:01:29,210 [Music] 34 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:31,560 welcome to skeptic aware we explore 35 00:01:35,460 --> 00:01:33,250 controversial science and spirituality 36 00:01:36,450 --> 00:01:35,470 with leading researchers thinkers and 37 00:01:38,430 --> 00:01:36,460 their critics 38 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:38,440 I'm your host Alex Karras and on this 39 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:42,490 episode an interesting exploration of 40 00:01:49,050 --> 00:01:46,570 film and culture in geopolitics and even 41 00:01:52,230 --> 00:01:49,060 religion from the very interesting Jay 42 00:01:54,390 --> 00:01:52,240 Dyer of Jay's analysis so as this 43 00:01:57,780 --> 00:01:54,400 interview unfolds you'll see that we go 44 00:01:59,310 --> 00:01:57,790 to a lot of I think new and interesting 45 00:02:01,380 --> 00:01:59,320 places that I haven't heard a lot of 46 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:01,390 people talk about including what might 47 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:05,050 lie behind the atheistic materialistic 48 00:02:10,980 --> 00:02:08,170 science meme and also a little bit of a 49 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:10,990 revisit to Christian apologetics since 50 00:02:15,270 --> 00:02:13,450 since J happens to be an Orthodox 51 00:02:17,550 --> 00:02:15,280 Christian and I say happens to be 52 00:02:19,350 --> 00:02:17,560 because you wouldn't really know that he 53 00:02:21,780 --> 00:02:19,360 doesn't really kind of lead with that 54 00:02:24,930 --> 00:02:21,790 and I mean he's just a person with some 55 00:02:28,350 --> 00:02:24,940 really cool smart ideas it's really not 56 00:02:30,270 --> 00:02:28,360 about his religion but I guess I kind of 57 00:02:32,610 --> 00:02:30,280 made it about his religion at times too 58 00:02:34,410 --> 00:02:32,620 because that seems to be important in 59 00:02:36,420 --> 00:02:34,420 this discussion I will let you know that 60 00:02:37,949 --> 00:02:36,430 the end of this exchange that Jay and I 61 00:02:40,470 --> 00:02:37,959 had which I thought was very you know 62 00:02:42,390 --> 00:02:40,480 positive and and great even though we 63 00:02:44,789 --> 00:02:42,400 really kind of got into it I left 64 00:02:46,920 --> 00:02:44,799 feeling glad that you know we had this 65 00:02:50,039 --> 00:02:46,930 exchange but we did talk about doing a 66 00:02:51,390 --> 00:02:50,049 follow-up and I do plan to do that as a 67 00:02:54,180 --> 00:02:51,400 matter of fact I just did an interview 68 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:54,190 follow up on that today that'll come out 69 00:02:59,820 --> 00:02:56,530 and then I hope to have Jay back on to 70 00:03:03,000 --> 00:02:59,830 talk more about some of the biblical 71 00:03:05,610 --> 00:03:03,010 scholarship Christian apologetics issue 72 00:03:08,449 --> 00:03:05,620 so that is not weighted down in this 73 00:03:13,640 --> 00:03:08,459 interview but will come in the future 74 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:17,160 today we welcome J Dyer to skeptic Oh J 75 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:20,050 is the creator of J's analysis a 76 00:03:25,920 --> 00:03:23,050 fascinating website YouTube channel that 77 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:25,930 tackles film analysis and philosophy 78 00:03:31,110 --> 00:03:29,170 geopolitics metaphysics all sorts of 79 00:03:33,180 --> 00:03:31,120 really cool stuff that has a lot of 80 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:33,190 overlap with the topics we've talked 81 00:03:39,990 --> 00:03:35,890 about on skeptic oh he's also the author 82 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:40,000 of esoteric Hollywood sex cults and 83 00:03:46,350 --> 00:03:42,970 symbols in film great book for anyone 84 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:46,360 interested in looking at film from a 85 00:03:51,930 --> 00:03:50,410 deeper esoteric occulted perspective 86 00:03:54,180 --> 00:03:51,940 it's a book that became quite popular 87 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:54,190 actually hit number one on one of the 88 00:03:59,040 --> 00:03:57,370 Amazon lists so big congrats to Jay for 89 00:04:01,050 --> 00:03:59,050 that Jay it's great to have you on 90 00:04:04,020 --> 00:04:01,060 skeptic oh thanks so much for joining me 91 00:04:06,330 --> 00:04:04,030 thank you pleasure to be here I'm 92 00:04:09,750 --> 00:04:06,340 looking forward to talking with you well 93 00:04:11,550 --> 00:04:09,760 you know first of all I have to say you 94 00:04:14,430 --> 00:04:11,560 know anyone who produces the amount of 95 00:04:18,599 --> 00:04:14,440 content quality constitute that you do I 96 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:18,609 just am in love and I'm amazed you have 97 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:22,890 great stuff so much fits free you have 98 00:04:28,890 --> 00:04:27,010 posts and podcasts tons of interviews 99 00:04:30,659 --> 00:04:28,900 that other people have done in G posts 100 00:04:32,670 --> 00:04:30,669 so there's a lot of great stuff on your 101 00:04:34,409 --> 00:04:32,680 website like I said a lot of it's 102 00:04:36,840 --> 00:04:34,419 available for free even the book 103 00:04:38,909 --> 00:04:36,850 esoteric Hollywood which is really 104 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:38,919 packed with a ton of stuff ton of 105 00:04:44,700 --> 00:04:41,530 footnotes really a well-done book that's 106 00:04:46,650 --> 00:04:44,710 only 10 bucks on Amazon so I don't know 107 00:04:48,990 --> 00:04:46,660 how you do it but I'm glad you're doing 108 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:49,000 it and putting it all out there thank 109 00:04:52,650 --> 00:04:50,770 you yeah I think I'm approaching 110 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:52,660 probably the next year or two I think 111 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:55,450 I'll have around a thousand essays and 112 00:04:58,950 --> 00:04:56,770 articles that I've written over the last 113 00:05:02,430 --> 00:04:58,960 I don't know seven or eight years most 114 00:05:04,140 --> 00:05:02,440 of them and then I would please request 115 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:04,150 that if you do want to get the book I 116 00:05:08,090 --> 00:05:06,010 know it's cheaper on Amazon and if you 117 00:05:10,740 --> 00:05:08,100 have to do that you can do that but 118 00:05:12,270 --> 00:05:10,750 Amazon is not that great for authors so 119 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:12,280 we really don't make anything when 120 00:05:16,170 --> 00:05:13,810 people get it on Amazon so if you want 121 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:16,180 to support me what you can do is get the 122 00:05:19,950 --> 00:05:18,010 the book directly from me and I know 123 00:05:23,100 --> 00:05:19,960 it's a little bit more but I do offer 124 00:05:26,250 --> 00:05:23,110 signed copies and I think the book is 125 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:26,260 you know it's going to keep doing well 126 00:05:29,790 --> 00:05:26,770 it's 127 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:29,800 everybody loves that I have 95% you know 128 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:34,770 positive ratings and almost I think 75 129 00:05:42,029 --> 00:05:38,650 star ratings across Amazon US UK and 130 00:05:43,710 --> 00:05:42,039 Goodreads so that's very good for you 131 00:05:46,379 --> 00:05:43,720 know only been out for about four months 132 00:05:48,089 --> 00:05:46,389 so anyway but yeah if you if you would 133 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:48,099 just get the book from Jai's analysis 134 00:05:52,350 --> 00:05:50,050 directly for me and it's a lot better 135 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:52,360 for the author but but yeah it's a lot 136 00:05:57,059 --> 00:05:54,490 of fun and I put out a lot of content 137 00:06:00,059 --> 00:05:57,069 because you know I pretty much have made 138 00:06:02,490 --> 00:06:00,069 this my full-time job for the last year 139 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:02,500 and a half so that kind of frees me up 140 00:06:06,629 --> 00:06:05,650 to to work on it every day and then of 141 00:06:10,110 --> 00:06:06,639 course you know when you're your own 142 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:10,120 boss you end up working 12 hours a day 143 00:06:13,740 --> 00:06:11,650 you know you're working a lot more than 144 00:06:14,879 --> 00:06:13,750 than you do when you're working for 145 00:06:16,339 --> 00:06:14,889 somebody else because you know 146 00:06:19,409 --> 00:06:16,349 everything's on your shoulders so 147 00:06:21,089 --> 00:06:19,419 absolutely totally get that so that's 148 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:21,099 very cool and I hear what you're saying 149 00:06:25,830 --> 00:06:23,650 and also there's a subscription but 150 00:06:27,570 --> 00:06:25,840 there's a subscription level that you 151 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:27,580 have on the website again there's a ton 152 00:06:31,830 --> 00:06:29,770 of content there for free but if people 153 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:31,840 want to support you they can do that 154 00:06:36,300 --> 00:06:33,490 through the website as well and I 155 00:06:37,890 --> 00:06:36,310 encourage anyone who's interested to 156 00:06:40,020 --> 00:06:37,900 just go check it out and actually that's 157 00:06:42,300 --> 00:06:40,030 one of the challenges I had in putting 158 00:06:44,309 --> 00:06:42,310 together this interview because there is 159 00:06:46,769 --> 00:06:44,319 so much out there I want to pick and 160 00:06:48,990 --> 00:06:46,779 choose this stuff that's I guess most 161 00:06:50,909 --> 00:06:49,000 relevant to skeptical listeners has the 162 00:06:52,499 --> 00:06:50,919 most overlap with what we've done and 163 00:06:54,990 --> 00:06:52,509 then I want people to get to know you 164 00:06:57,450 --> 00:06:55,000 and if they like you and what you're 165 00:06:59,550 --> 00:06:57,460 doing they can do what we all do which 166 00:07:02,279 --> 00:06:59,560 is go sample a bunch of your stuff and 167 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:02,289 then say hey I want this to continue how 168 00:07:06,149 --> 00:07:04,090 do I make sure this guy keeps doing what 169 00:07:08,129 --> 00:07:06,159 he's doing and that's when I think the 170 00:07:10,260 --> 00:07:08,139 support really kicks in so yeah I 171 00:07:11,939 --> 00:07:10,270 appreciate that yeah there's the 172 00:07:15,540 --> 00:07:11,949 subscription service is actually the 173 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:15,550 main means of how I make a living and 174 00:07:20,909 --> 00:07:18,370 the book helps but then of course the TV 175 00:07:22,890 --> 00:07:20,919 show this year but did the subscription 176 00:07:25,140 --> 00:07:22,900 service it's there's a pretty good-sized 177 00:07:27,990 --> 00:07:25,150 archive of course it's growing and I put 178 00:07:30,300 --> 00:07:28,000 out something subscription-based every 179 00:07:32,339 --> 00:07:30,310 week and so you get like the first hour 180 00:07:36,870 --> 00:07:32,349 free and then you know the full two 181 00:07:39,890 --> 00:07:36,880 hours for a meager $5 a month or $60 a 182 00:07:42,770 --> 00:07:39,900 year so everybody enjoys it I have 183 00:07:44,630 --> 00:07:42,780 again on the subscription side of things 184 00:07:47,630 --> 00:07:44,640 I have about 95 percent approval 185 00:07:50,090 --> 00:07:47,640 everybody likes that so and they come 186 00:07:51,470 --> 00:07:50,100 back you know even people who cancel 187 00:07:54,620 --> 00:07:51,480 I noticed quite a few of them actually 188 00:07:56,690 --> 00:07:54,630 come back after a few months though so 189 00:07:59,660 --> 00:07:56,700 everybody who you know is into what I do 190 00:08:02,660 --> 00:07:59,670 likes a lot and it's just been great I 191 00:08:04,610 --> 00:08:02,670 think the Internet's amazing for you 192 00:08:06,380 --> 00:08:04,620 know people who want to do their own 193 00:08:08,780 --> 00:08:06,390 thing in their own little niche you know 194 00:08:11,450 --> 00:08:08,790 you can really if you work at it you can 195 00:08:14,750 --> 00:08:11,460 make a living out of it that is amazing 196 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:14,760 and it's it's important new way to kind 197 00:08:21,290 --> 00:08:18,930 of foster this long tail journalism and 198 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:21,300 analysis and all that stuff but hey you 199 00:08:24,710 --> 00:08:22,650 know where I thought we might start off 200 00:08:27,230 --> 00:08:24,720 with in a great cross sector 201 00:08:28,790 --> 00:08:27,240 intersection between what topic you've 202 00:08:31,700 --> 00:08:28,800 talked about and one that's near and 203 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:31,710 dear to us here on skeptic oh is the 204 00:08:37,190 --> 00:08:34,770 idea of scientism you know and because 205 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:37,200 from Richard Dawkins and the new atheist 206 00:08:42,230 --> 00:08:40,770 to Charles Darwin we could even start 207 00:08:45,130 --> 00:08:42,240 with the story a great story I heard 208 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:45,140 about how your editor even flinched at 209 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:48,930 your treatment of Darwin in esoteric 210 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:52,770 Hollywood because he is this demigod god 211 00:08:57,920 --> 00:08:55,410 upon God's among science and it's really 212 00:08:59,660 --> 00:08:57,930 when you deconstruct it there's well 213 00:09:03,260 --> 00:08:59,670 there's a lot there to deconstruct just 214 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:03,270 dive in anywhere you want yeah why in 215 00:09:08,540 --> 00:09:06,450 that guy I love two huge critical 216 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:08,550 scientism that makes up a big portion of 217 00:09:13,490 --> 00:09:11,730 what I deal with throughout a lot of the 218 00:09:15,950 --> 00:09:13,500 essays and the reason for that is that 219 00:09:19,250 --> 00:09:15,960 you know I like the rest of us I went to 220 00:09:21,530 --> 00:09:19,260 the school system and then the academic 221 00:09:23,540 --> 00:09:21,540 realm and you know you're just sort of 222 00:09:28,010 --> 00:09:23,550 beat over the head with this non-stop 223 00:09:30,110 --> 00:09:28,020 you know it's like from womb to grad 224 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:30,120 school you know you've been told over 225 00:09:35,030 --> 00:09:32,010 and over and over that the scientific 226 00:09:36,230 --> 00:09:35,040 method is really the only way to to 227 00:09:39,650 --> 00:09:36,240 approach the world it's the most 228 00:09:41,390 --> 00:09:39,660 reliable meaning or source for meaning 229 00:09:43,130 --> 00:09:41,400 and and that's where it sort of steps 230 00:09:45,590 --> 00:09:43,140 over its bounds because when we 231 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:45,600 understand what the scientific method 232 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:48,770 actually is that it's simply a tool for 233 00:09:53,780 --> 00:09:52,650 investigating and hypothesizing and you 234 00:09:55,940 --> 00:09:53,790 know coming to conclusions 235 00:09:58,880 --> 00:09:55,950 about the natural world that's really 236 00:10:01,750 --> 00:09:58,890 all it can do by the nature of what it 237 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:01,760 is not a position statement it's not 238 00:10:06,740 --> 00:10:04,890 materialism it's not saying we are a 239 00:10:08,990 --> 00:10:06,750 biological robot in a meaningless 240 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:09,000 universe it's just saying here's a tool 241 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:11,490 set it's a tool set right it would be 242 00:10:16,190 --> 00:10:13,530 like trying to you know make a 243 00:10:19,580 --> 00:10:16,200 screwdriver into some sort of symbol of 244 00:10:21,980 --> 00:10:19,590 deity it's it's it's a tool it can't it 245 00:10:24,110 --> 00:10:21,990 can't function that way so it doesn't 246 00:10:26,780 --> 00:10:24,120 have the ability to grant grand 247 00:10:29,210 --> 00:10:26,790 narratives and that's what it's become 248 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:29,220 in our day because it's really been 249 00:10:33,560 --> 00:10:31,770 something that has that I think they 250 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:33,570 realized a long time ago could be used 251 00:10:37,850 --> 00:10:36,210 for social engineering and propaganda 252 00:10:41,270 --> 00:10:37,860 that's really what it functions as now 253 00:10:44,450 --> 00:10:41,280 and give us some examples some specific 254 00:10:48,710 --> 00:10:44,460 ways that you've seen in terms of how 255 00:10:51,020 --> 00:10:48,720 that's brought forward either in film or 256 00:10:52,940 --> 00:10:51,030 through these characters we see like 257 00:10:55,550 --> 00:10:52,950 Dawkins in the New Atheists 258 00:10:57,530 --> 00:10:55,560 or anything that's bubbles up to the top 259 00:10:59,510 --> 00:10:57,540 of your mind well I mean the greatest 260 00:11:02,720 --> 00:10:59,520 example is what just happened the last 261 00:11:04,550 --> 00:11:02,730 couple weeks where people pulled up old 262 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:04,560 clips of Bill Nye and his old show 263 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:07,290 talking about how chromosomes you know 264 00:11:11,180 --> 00:11:09,210 give you biological identity you can't 265 00:11:13,250 --> 00:11:11,190 it's kind of determined you don't really 266 00:11:16,850 --> 00:11:13,260 get to choose that you can't change your 267 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:16,860 chromosomes and then now he's done this 268 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:20,090 new show which is obviously just blatant 269 00:11:24,170 --> 00:11:22,770 transgender propaganda saying that 270 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:24,180 gender is a spectrum and it's not 271 00:11:29,210 --> 00:11:26,850 determined by biology so so that's one 272 00:11:31,430 --> 00:11:29,220 of the clearest examples I can think of 273 00:11:33,290 --> 00:11:31,440 that probably of all time that just 274 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:33,300 happened within the last few weeks junk 275 00:11:37,340 --> 00:11:35,250 DNA is another good example you there 276 00:11:38,540 --> 00:11:37,350 people have put together clips of 277 00:11:40,940 --> 00:11:38,550 Richard Dawkins just completely 278 00:11:42,890 --> 00:11:40,950 contradicting himself not just being in 279 00:11:45,890 --> 00:11:42,900 error about junk DNA but actually lying 280 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:45,900 about what he said because there's clips 281 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:46,890 from him Jim 282 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:49,410 10 years ago saying junk DNA is of 283 00:11:52,670 --> 00:11:51,090 course one of the greatest evidences if 284 00:11:55,340 --> 00:11:52,680 you have for the proof of evolution and 285 00:11:57,740 --> 00:11:55,350 then now that there's a not quote junk 286 00:11:59,420 --> 00:11:57,750 DNA he says the exact opposite and 287 00:12:01,130 --> 00:11:59,430 claims that he's always said that right 288 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:01,140 here the fact that we don't have junk 289 00:12:04,910 --> 00:12:02,730 DNA is one of the strongest proofs of 290 00:12:07,220 --> 00:12:04,920 evolution I've always said this and he's 291 00:12:08,810 --> 00:12:07,230 just flat-out contradicts himself so 292 00:12:12,560 --> 00:12:08,820 you know these are guys who are put 293 00:12:14,300 --> 00:12:12,570 forward as pop scientists and you can 294 00:12:16,460 --> 00:12:14,310 even look into the character of Einstein 295 00:12:18,020 --> 00:12:16,470 and find a lot of discrepancies he was 296 00:12:19,610 --> 00:12:18,030 very controversial at his time hey 297 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:19,620 there's a lot of accusations of 298 00:12:25,370 --> 00:12:22,650 plagiarism so what I'm getting at is 299 00:12:29,270 --> 00:12:25,380 just that these people are kind of put 300 00:12:31,610 --> 00:12:29,280 forward guys pop stars for not the 301 00:12:34,460 --> 00:12:31,620 scientific method or or anything like 302 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:34,470 that but really scientism and once you 303 00:12:37,610 --> 00:12:35,850 understand that it's a world you know a 304 00:12:39,730 --> 00:12:37,620 lot of by the way this is not like a 305 00:12:43,540 --> 00:12:39,740 theory that I've come up with a lot of 306 00:12:46,220 --> 00:12:43,550 very well recent philosophers and 307 00:12:49,010 --> 00:12:46,230 philosophers of science which is a whole 308 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:49,020 other discipline that's that's very 309 00:12:53,450 --> 00:12:51,450 crucial I think to understand which I do 310 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:53,460 a lot of research into that and my grad 311 00:12:59,150 --> 00:12:57,330 school and undergrad days they've 312 00:13:01,130 --> 00:12:59,160 critiqued this for a long time and so 313 00:13:04,730 --> 00:13:01,140 the irony here is that that scientism 314 00:13:06,980 --> 00:13:04,740 and naive empiricism are actually views 315 00:13:09,650 --> 00:13:06,990 that have been completely dissected for 316 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:09,660 like dozens of times over for many many 317 00:13:13,670 --> 00:13:11,970 years but it's almost kind of like a 318 00:13:16,580 --> 00:13:13,680 vampire I think one of my professors 319 00:13:18,950 --> 00:13:16,590 said that if it's like this vampire that 320 00:13:20,450 --> 00:13:18,960 just keeps coming back it doesn't die no 321 00:13:22,730 --> 00:13:20,460 matter how many times you shoot it or 322 00:13:25,010 --> 00:13:22,740 you dismember it it just kind of like 323 00:13:27,890 --> 00:13:25,020 magically comes back to life and you 324 00:13:29,980 --> 00:13:27,900 know people still fall for something 325 00:13:31,790 --> 00:13:29,990 that is just just so easily 326 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:31,800 deconstructed I mean you can very very 327 00:13:37,670 --> 00:13:35,850 easily show the incoherency and the 328 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:37,680 inconsistency and the contradictions 329 00:13:44,270 --> 00:13:41,370 involved in their naive scientism well 330 00:13:46,310 --> 00:13:44,280 especially when you introduce scientific 331 00:13:47,870 --> 00:13:46,320 materialism which is something we've 332 00:13:48,770 --> 00:13:47,880 talked about about on this show when you 333 00:13:52,370 --> 00:13:48,780 really break it down 334 00:13:55,730 --> 00:13:52,380 and look at the proposition behind that 335 00:13:58,520 --> 00:13:55,740 and also the links to a theism which are 336 00:14:00,730 --> 00:13:58,530 just stark I mean you can't really 337 00:14:04,180 --> 00:14:00,740 separate the two because the the 338 00:14:06,770 --> 00:14:04,190 philosophical agenda is the same it's 339 00:14:09,830 --> 00:14:06,780 materialism is telling us this is all 340 00:14:11,990 --> 00:14:09,840 there is we are just what we see we are 341 00:14:14,650 --> 00:14:12,000 nothing more as human beings there's no 342 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:14,660 meaning to anything and then that is 343 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:18,330 part and parcel with the idea of atheism 344 00:14:22,310 --> 00:14:20,250 it just goes hand in hand I should say 345 00:14:24,650 --> 00:14:22,320 hand-in-hand with the idea of atheism 346 00:14:26,930 --> 00:14:24,660 and I think that that's been engineered 347 00:14:30,380 --> 00:14:26,940 in from the beginning I mean if you look 348 00:14:33,830 --> 00:14:30,390 at Darwinism which there's some debate 349 00:14:37,700 --> 00:14:33,840 about whether Darwinism really implied 350 00:14:39,260 --> 00:14:37,710 the social Darwinist ik survival of the 351 00:14:40,940 --> 00:14:39,270 fittest and I think we've gone back and 352 00:14:44,180 --> 00:14:40,950 forth on that but I think ultimately the 353 00:14:46,010 --> 00:14:44,190 answer is yes that was the design from 354 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:46,020 the beginning to kind of force or mote 355 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:48,450 this idea in the title of the book go 356 00:14:51,620 --> 00:14:50,130 ahead well I'm just agreeing with you 357 00:14:53,090 --> 00:14:51,630 I'm saying it obviously it is it's in 358 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:53,100 the title of the book the favored races 359 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:54,810 sent me 360 00:15:02,090 --> 00:14:57,290 you know he's it's it's the product of 361 00:15:04,780 --> 00:15:02,100 you know Malthusian Victorian England 362 00:15:06,860 --> 00:15:04,790 right it's the idea that the 363 00:15:10,870 --> 00:15:06,870 anglo-american establishment the British 364 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:10,880 Empire was the apex of history and that 365 00:15:16,010 --> 00:15:14,370 this there's really no other model by 366 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:16,020 which the world should be governed and 367 00:15:20,300 --> 00:15:17,490 you can't really I don't think 368 00:15:24,980 --> 00:15:20,310 understand Darwin and Darwinism outside 369 00:15:26,900 --> 00:15:24,990 of the ethos from which it comes this is 370 00:15:29,030 --> 00:15:26,910 another error that a lot of people 371 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:29,040 involved in scientism make is that they 372 00:15:34,790 --> 00:15:32,610 assume that there's a neutrality that 373 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:34,800 the signs you know some somehow has 374 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:40,050 magical access to neutrality and you 375 00:15:43,820 --> 00:15:41,850 know there's no cognitive dissonance 376 00:15:45,290 --> 00:15:43,830 there's no bias involved in quote 377 00:15:46,790 --> 00:15:45,300 science and that there's just brute 378 00:15:49,970 --> 00:15:46,800 factuality and it doesn't require 379 00:15:52,490 --> 00:15:49,980 interpretation and that we know we just 380 00:15:54,890 --> 00:15:52,500 the scientist when he dons the lab coat 381 00:15:57,380 --> 00:15:54,900 just magically obtains a you know 382 00:16:00,410 --> 00:15:57,390 objectivity to degree that no other 383 00:16:07,190 --> 00:16:00,420 human being in any other field has which 384 00:16:11,030 --> 00:16:07,200 is curious because in my view the the 385 00:16:14,270 --> 00:16:11,040 real science I would say happens most of 386 00:16:16,190 --> 00:16:14,280 the time in fields like engineering and 387 00:16:19,340 --> 00:16:16,200 you know where you have real development 388 00:16:20,390 --> 00:16:19,350 based on actual principles that occur in 389 00:16:23,150 --> 00:16:20,400 the world now that's not to say that 390 00:16:24,470 --> 00:16:23,160 nobody's successful in biology or 391 00:16:26,270 --> 00:16:24,480 anything like that I'm not saying that 392 00:16:29,210 --> 00:16:26,280 I'm just saying that what most people 393 00:16:32,330 --> 00:16:29,220 think science is isn't really science 394 00:16:34,470 --> 00:16:32,340 it's more of a again a propaganda tool 395 00:16:37,530 --> 00:16:34,480 of real 396 00:16:40,519 --> 00:16:37,540 the older worldviews that that are kind 397 00:16:43,939 --> 00:16:40,529 of dead it's it's this lingering 398 00:16:46,019 --> 00:16:43,949 enlightenment-era notion that we can 399 00:16:48,269 --> 00:16:46,029 understand a natural world without any 400 00:16:49,710 --> 00:16:48,279 kind of presuppositions or biases and 401 00:16:51,710 --> 00:16:49,720 that there are just brief facts and 402 00:16:54,470 --> 00:16:51,720 there have been so many advancements in 403 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:54,480 for example human anthropology or 404 00:16:59,790 --> 00:16:57,130 ethnography or or anything to do with 405 00:17:01,800 --> 00:16:59,800 studying belief systems and worldviews 406 00:17:04,590 --> 00:17:01,810 that shows that there's no such thing as 407 00:17:06,270 --> 00:17:04,600 this privileged neutral position well 408 00:17:08,549 --> 00:17:06,280 that's that's kind of fundamental to 409 00:17:10,829 --> 00:17:08,559 physics of the last 100 years in the 410 00:17:12,329 --> 00:17:10,839 quantum physics revolution that everyone 411 00:17:14,370 --> 00:17:12,339 wants to get away from and say oh you're 412 00:17:16,740 --> 00:17:14,380 going to sprinkle the quantum whoo-whoo 413 00:17:19,439 --> 00:17:16,750 stuff well no I mean if you just go back 414 00:17:21,689 --> 00:17:19,449 and look at what quantum physicists were 415 00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:21,699 most concerned about 100 years ago 416 00:17:27,929 --> 00:17:25,329 they're the same issues so Niels Bohr 417 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:27,939 and Schrodinger and all the rest were 418 00:17:33,980 --> 00:17:30,730 saying hey guys we've run into a problem 419 00:17:37,039 --> 00:17:33,990 here it seems like there's nothing there 420 00:17:39,900 --> 00:17:37,049 until we're observing it and 421 00:17:42,299 --> 00:17:39,910 consciousness is fundamental and we have 422 00:17:44,370 --> 00:17:42,309 the kind of pyramid backwards it's not 423 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:44,380 matter that's generating consciousness 424 00:17:48,270 --> 00:17:45,850 it's somehow and some what we don't 425 00:17:50,610 --> 00:17:48,280 understand consciousness generating 426 00:17:52,110 --> 00:17:50,620 matter and then what they did with the 427 00:17:54,270 --> 00:17:52,120 engineering part and what we've done 428 00:17:55,890 --> 00:17:54,280 over and over again is say well let's 429 00:17:58,020 --> 00:17:55,900 ignore the philosophical problems 430 00:18:00,299 --> 00:17:58,030 therein just shut up and calculate and 431 00:18:01,860 --> 00:18:00,309 hey that's cool you know we generated a 432 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:01,870 lot of really cool stuff and cool 433 00:18:06,090 --> 00:18:04,690 medicine and all the rest of that but if 434 00:18:07,620 --> 00:18:06,100 I could return one minute one of the 435 00:18:10,860 --> 00:18:07,630 things I think is fascinating about the 436 00:18:12,780 --> 00:18:10,870 Charles Darwin thing is you know you can 437 00:18:15,990 --> 00:18:12,790 sit down and you can explain to anyone 438 00:18:18,419 --> 00:18:16,000 in less than a minute how the Darwinism 439 00:18:20,970 --> 00:18:18,429 breaks down because this survival of the 440 00:18:21,630 --> 00:18:20,980 fittest thing we all know that's not 441 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:21,640 true 442 00:18:28,049 --> 00:18:25,090 it's really the non survival of the 443 00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:28,059 least fit right so if you're a pack of 444 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:30,370 gazelles you don't have to be the 445 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:32,770 fastest one just don't be the slowest 446 00:18:37,590 --> 00:18:35,530 one I mean even if you accept Darwinism 447 00:18:39,810 --> 00:18:37,600 for what it is that's all he was saying 448 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:39,820 and then the second thing he was saying 449 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:42,010 is it's not about survival of the 450 00:18:46,350 --> 00:18:44,650 individual it's about survival the group 451 00:18:47,910 --> 00:18:46,360 because if you to survive as an 452 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:47,920 individual that doesn't do you much 453 00:18:53,610 --> 00:18:50,410 but if your pack survives if your group 454 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:53,620 survives if you accept Darwinism even 455 00:18:57,510 --> 00:18:55,330 basically what it is you have to 456 00:18:59,640 --> 00:18:57,520 understand that it's the survival and 457 00:19:01,920 --> 00:18:59,650 perpetuation of that gene set of the 458 00:19:03,390 --> 00:19:01,930 group so when you just look at that 459 00:19:04,950 --> 00:19:03,400 anyone thinks about that and they go 460 00:19:07,380 --> 00:19:04,960 well yeah that's pretty obvious 461 00:19:10,950 --> 00:19:07,390 then you step angle well how did we get 462 00:19:11,700 --> 00:19:10,960 into this survival of the fittest social 463 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:11,710 engineering 464 00:19:17,610 --> 00:19:14,650 we must dominate everyone else kind of 465 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:17,620 thing and then it's clearly for 466 00:19:21,780 --> 00:19:20,410 political and and control reasons in 467 00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:21,790 terms of supporting a particular 468 00:19:26,220 --> 00:19:24,510 political ideology I mean it's pretty 469 00:19:28,740 --> 00:19:26,230 obvious I think 470 00:19:31,830 --> 00:19:28,750 yeah and that there are you know a host 471 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:31,840 of problems with that worldview I have a 472 00:19:35,990 --> 00:19:34,690 bunch of talks and articles and essays 473 00:19:38,910 --> 00:19:36,000 that I've written about it where I 474 00:19:42,570 --> 00:19:38,920 constructed on many levels 475 00:19:44,580 --> 00:19:42,580 I do in a few essays deal with extensive 476 00:19:46,530 --> 00:19:44,590 kind of scientific type type 477 00:19:48,750 --> 00:19:46,540 argumentation but I don't usually focus 478 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:48,760 on that because my training was more so 479 00:19:52,770 --> 00:19:50,290 as a philosopher so I'm usually 480 00:19:54,780 --> 00:19:52,780 interested in the metaphysical and 481 00:19:57,090 --> 00:19:54,790 philosophical critiques of Darwinism and 482 00:20:01,530 --> 00:19:57,100 and one thing I would say is that if you 483 00:20:03,990 --> 00:20:01,540 start at the the the philosophical level 484 00:20:06,540 --> 00:20:04,000 and you look at it and you say okay what 485 00:20:08,820 --> 00:20:06,550 is this worldview or what do most people 486 00:20:11,490 --> 00:20:08,830 who have this world you tend to say 487 00:20:15,470 --> 00:20:11,500 about man and about the external world 488 00:20:18,630 --> 00:20:15,480 and about history and and the process of 489 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:18,640 objects and phenomena and so forth and 490 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:20,530 what you tend to find is a lot of 491 00:20:24,900 --> 00:20:22,690 people's kind of spouting the same stuff 492 00:20:28,020 --> 00:20:24,910 so I think I can safely group most 493 00:20:30,870 --> 00:20:28,030 people in that that type of worldview 494 00:20:34,530 --> 00:20:30,880 under no the categories of reductionism 495 00:20:36,570 --> 00:20:34,540 and materialism and naturalistic process 496 00:20:38,910 --> 00:20:36,580 and so forth process philosophy maybe 497 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:38,920 and what you find is that you can kind 498 00:20:43,950 --> 00:20:41,650 of group all of those views together 499 00:20:46,290 --> 00:20:43,960 under a lot of the same basic 500 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:46,300 presupposition so when I approach things 501 00:20:50,670 --> 00:20:49,210 that might in my work philosophically I 502 00:20:53,850 --> 00:20:50,680 do what's called a presuppositional 503 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:53,860 critique and I do that because I believe 504 00:20:58,590 --> 00:20:56,650 that the way that humans and human 505 00:21:00,060 --> 00:20:58,600 psychology functions that it interprets 506 00:21:01,799 --> 00:21:00,070 the world according to a kind of a 507 00:21:04,469 --> 00:21:01,809 framework and 508 00:21:07,769 --> 00:21:04,479 if we if we have say faulty 509 00:21:08,849 --> 00:21:07,779 presuppositions then we have glasses 510 00:21:12,029 --> 00:21:08,859 that we're going to read the world 511 00:21:13,859 --> 00:21:12,039 through incoherently and will in and so 512 00:21:15,959 --> 00:21:13,869 if I put a bunch of evidence in front or 513 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:15,969 somebody say them that I think 514 00:21:20,369 --> 00:21:18,369 contradicts their worldview if I've not 515 00:21:22,289 --> 00:21:20,379 challenged their presuppositions then 516 00:21:25,259 --> 00:21:22,299 all of those evidences are going to be 517 00:21:26,609 --> 00:21:25,269 read according to their map their 518 00:21:28,919 --> 00:21:26,619 founding Maxim's right they're going to 519 00:21:31,259 --> 00:21:28,929 just going to reinterpret the evidences 520 00:21:35,190 --> 00:21:31,269 that I put in front of them according to 521 00:21:37,289 --> 00:21:35,200 what they already believe is the case so 522 00:21:39,810 --> 00:21:37,299 what needs to be done I think is to kind 523 00:21:43,379 --> 00:21:39,820 of dig a little bit deeper and kind of 524 00:21:45,989 --> 00:21:43,389 uproot the foundational premises which 525 00:21:49,169 --> 00:21:45,999 they most likely never questioned and 526 00:21:50,519 --> 00:21:49,179 I've had in my lifetime probably 300 527 00:21:52,649 --> 00:21:50,529 debates with people with this kind of 528 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:52,659 worldview and you notice all the same 529 00:21:56,459 --> 00:21:54,129 pattern so connotes that well they never 530 00:21:57,989 --> 00:21:56,469 actually maybe they never took a 531 00:21:59,700 --> 00:21:57,999 philosophy class it never occurred to 532 00:22:01,289 --> 00:21:59,710 them to question these these kinds of 533 00:22:03,629 --> 00:22:01,299 things but they never thought about 534 00:22:05,849 --> 00:22:03,639 something like a good example is 535 00:22:08,459 --> 00:22:05,859 identity over time now this is a kind of 536 00:22:10,859 --> 00:22:08,469 a perennial philosophy question how does 537 00:22:12,719 --> 00:22:10,869 an object in the world retain its 538 00:22:15,239 --> 00:22:12,729 identity what does it mean to say that 539 00:22:17,190 --> 00:22:15,249 that object is that thing and that it it 540 00:22:20,129 --> 00:22:17,200 remains that thing whatever it may be 541 00:22:22,409 --> 00:22:20,139 over time now that sounds maybe a little 542 00:22:24,930 --> 00:22:22,419 obtuse or a little out there but this is 543 00:22:26,519 --> 00:22:24,940 pretty fundamental actually because you 544 00:22:28,859 --> 00:22:26,529 know when we go about our daily business 545 00:22:31,289 --> 00:22:28,869 or when we interact with other people 546 00:22:33,659 --> 00:22:31,299 you know we think so and so is that 547 00:22:35,609 --> 00:22:33,669 person erika bob is bob and he was the 548 00:22:38,519 --> 00:22:35,619 same Bobby was you know five years ago 549 00:22:40,259 --> 00:22:38,529 when he was younger and you know when he 550 00:22:41,869 --> 00:22:40,269 was a baby he was that same Bobby even 551 00:22:45,089 --> 00:22:41,879 though his body has completely changed 552 00:22:48,930 --> 00:22:45,099 so we have this sort of underlying 553 00:22:52,499 --> 00:22:48,940 assumption for example of identity and 554 00:22:54,149 --> 00:22:52,509 the self right over time now none of 555 00:22:56,219 --> 00:22:54,159 that can actually be shown or 556 00:22:59,459 --> 00:22:56,229 demonstrated empirically there's there's 557 00:23:02,249 --> 00:22:59,469 absolutely no way to to prove 558 00:23:05,339 --> 00:23:02,259 empirically that there was the same self 559 00:23:07,289 --> 00:23:05,349 over time for one because you don't have 560 00:23:09,599 --> 00:23:07,299 access to the past right I mean you bet 561 00:23:12,149 --> 00:23:09,609 you might have a video recording of 562 00:23:13,739 --> 00:23:12,159 something of the you know the Bob as a 563 00:23:15,730 --> 00:23:13,749 baby or something but you don't have 564 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:15,740 direct and beautiful access 565 00:23:22,659 --> 00:23:18,890 - Bob's self-right for whoever he was as 566 00:23:25,419 --> 00:23:22,669 a person I don't also have access to my 567 00:23:27,100 --> 00:23:25,429 own self right but when we interpret the 568 00:23:30,659 --> 00:23:27,110 world when we do science when we do 569 00:23:33,669 --> 00:23:30,669 anything any kind of human activity 570 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:33,679 we're presuming the existence of a self 571 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:36,890 I mean the fact that I'm engaging in 572 00:23:40,570 --> 00:23:38,570 this chat with you assumes that I have 573 00:23:42,190 --> 00:23:40,580 some sort of salt or conscious identity 574 00:23:44,340 --> 00:23:42,200 as citizens that you do and that we can 575 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:44,350 have meaningful rational 576 00:23:49,899 --> 00:23:47,330 intercommunication right but at no point 577 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:49,909 in this discussion or at no point in any 578 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:52,250 sort of lab can you ever possibly 579 00:23:58,180 --> 00:23:56,450 demonstrate that there is a self nor can 580 00:24:01,210 --> 00:23:58,190 you demonstrate that any sort of object 581 00:24:03,730 --> 00:24:01,220 out there in the world has identity over 582 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:03,740 time it's now so some people would say 583 00:24:07,149 --> 00:24:05,570 and some skeptics have said such as 584 00:24:09,010 --> 00:24:07,159 David Hume and these different 585 00:24:10,750 --> 00:24:09,020 philosophers and so well that well then 586 00:24:12,279 --> 00:24:10,760 that out with all that right we just 587 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:12,289 can't know we can never know that 588 00:24:16,570 --> 00:24:13,970 there's a self we can never know that 589 00:24:18,430 --> 00:24:16,580 they're objects of the world or take it 590 00:24:20,529 --> 00:24:18,440 one step further right I mean Daniel 591 00:24:22,870 --> 00:24:20,539 Dennett consciousness is an illusion 592 00:24:25,149 --> 00:24:22,880 you know he just died so in other words 593 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:25,159 what I'm saying is that the people who 594 00:24:29,950 --> 00:24:27,610 adopt those kind of presuppositions like 595 00:24:32,590 --> 00:24:29,960 reductionism and materialism and that 596 00:24:35,169 --> 00:24:32,600 all reality is perpetual flocks and they 597 00:24:36,700 --> 00:24:35,179 don't really bite the bullet is what I'm 598 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:36,710 trying to say like they like to kind of 599 00:24:39,519 --> 00:24:38,450 play a little game with themselves and 600 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:39,529 with others well that were though 601 00:24:44,019 --> 00:24:41,450 they'll adopt that view and kind of 602 00:24:46,289 --> 00:24:44,029 argue with it and pretend like they 603 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:46,299 believe that but in their daily life 604 00:24:50,380 --> 00:24:49,010 they believe that they exist you know 605 00:24:52,690 --> 00:24:50,390 Neil deGrasse Tyson 606 00:24:54,310 --> 00:24:52,700 I'm sure likes getting a paycheck for 607 00:24:56,110 --> 00:24:54,320 being Neil deGrasse Tyson doesn't he so 608 00:24:58,539 --> 00:24:56,120 I mean that kind of seems that he he's 609 00:25:02,260 --> 00:24:58,549 that person right he doesn't actually 610 00:25:04,210 --> 00:25:02,270 act and live as if he believes all these 611 00:25:07,210 --> 00:25:04,220 presuppositions that he's preaching 612 00:25:09,100 --> 00:25:07,220 every day and so what I do is kind of 613 00:25:11,289 --> 00:25:09,110 dig down and I say look all of this is 614 00:25:14,970 --> 00:25:11,299 can be reduced to complete absurdity 615 00:25:18,430 --> 00:25:14,980 because the the outworking of your view 616 00:25:20,889 --> 00:25:18,440 when you attack things like God or the 617 00:25:22,419 --> 00:25:20,899 existence of anything immaterial or 618 00:25:24,340 --> 00:25:22,429 conceptual when you say that none of 619 00:25:26,470 --> 00:25:24,350 that exists well that means that Neil 620 00:25:28,090 --> 00:25:26,480 deGrasse Tyson as a salt doesn't exist I 621 00:25:29,529 --> 00:25:28,100 mean this is so this is just altom utley 622 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:29,539 absurd and it 623 00:25:32,979 --> 00:25:31,850 flatout a contradiction there's no way 624 00:25:34,979 --> 00:25:32,989 around it 625 00:25:37,450 --> 00:25:34,989 and I think that if we really pressed 626 00:25:38,619 --> 00:25:37,460 Neil deGrasse Tyson or bill Meyer and 627 00:25:40,149 --> 00:25:38,629 these people I don't think they would 628 00:25:41,710 --> 00:25:40,159 have any kind of answer because you know 629 00:25:43,330 --> 00:25:41,720 they say in interviews they say I don't 630 00:25:44,889 --> 00:25:43,340 care about philosophy doesn't matter 631 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:44,899 funny but I mean these are the kind of 632 00:25:49,779 --> 00:25:47,690 real questions that that I think are 633 00:25:50,919 --> 00:25:49,789 absolutely legitimate what are you 634 00:25:53,019 --> 00:25:50,929 talking about if you're going to sit 635 00:25:55,149 --> 00:25:53,029 here and by the way these people they'll 636 00:25:57,729 --> 00:25:55,159 talk all the way all day about you know 637 00:25:59,979 --> 00:25:57,739 phony liberal causes and human rights 638 00:26:01,180 --> 00:25:59,989 and this kind of crap why would you talk 639 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:01,190 about human rights if you don't even 640 00:26:03,999 --> 00:26:02,570 believe that there's a consciousness or 641 00:26:06,570 --> 00:26:04,009 self and so it's just a bunch of 642 00:26:09,820 --> 00:26:06,580 double-talk and kind of word games oh I 643 00:26:12,549 --> 00:26:09,830 totally totally agree with you I like 644 00:26:14,919 --> 00:26:12,559 the way philosopher Albert Camus put it 645 00:26:18,190 --> 00:26:14,929 said there's only one philosophical 646 00:26:21,369 --> 00:26:18,200 question suicide yeah that's the result 647 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:21,379 of the the nihilistic existence well no 648 00:26:25,239 --> 00:26:23,210 but it's it you could take it is that 649 00:26:28,450 --> 00:26:25,249 way because you also take it as kind of 650 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:28,460 a little bit of a jab in terms of if you 651 00:26:35,619 --> 00:26:31,450 start with that presupposition that 652 00:26:37,539 --> 00:26:35,629 dogma then why perpetuate the the crew 653 00:26:39,999 --> 00:26:37,549 Pesci eight the nothingness why 654 00:26:42,580 --> 00:26:40,009 perpetuate the game and I think that 655 00:26:45,330 --> 00:26:42,590 gets to your point of they don't really 656 00:26:49,659 --> 00:26:45,340 believe that when pressed and that's why 657 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:49,669 the consciousness is an illusion kind of 658 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:52,369 meme is really falling out of favor and 659 00:26:57,820 --> 00:26:55,369 people talk about Dennett you know the 660 00:27:00,009 --> 00:26:57,830 the modern people like sam harris and 661 00:27:02,169 --> 00:27:00,019 and those people talk about Dennett they 662 00:27:04,149 --> 00:27:02,179 go well we're not sure dan is really 663 00:27:06,159 --> 00:27:04,159 serious about that like no one in the 664 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:06,169 right mind could really be serious about 665 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:08,570 that and then they kind of try and get 666 00:27:13,719 --> 00:27:11,330 into pants psychism or this emergent 667 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:13,729 quality of consciousness which is really 668 00:27:17,830 --> 00:27:16,129 just kind of trying to find some wiggle 669 00:27:20,950 --> 00:27:17,840 room to the idea that there that 670 00:27:22,869 --> 00:27:20,960 consciousness is fundamental which we 671 00:27:25,330 --> 00:27:22,879 can get there but you know this is your 672 00:27:27,609 --> 00:27:25,340 turf and philosophy we could talk about 673 00:27:29,529 --> 00:27:27,619 all day but if I can let me shift the 674 00:27:30,729 --> 00:27:29,539 focus a little bit because one of the 675 00:27:33,879 --> 00:27:30,739 links that I think is really interesting 676 00:27:36,129 --> 00:27:33,889 if you cover many many ways and it's 677 00:27:39,729 --> 00:27:36,139 hard to pin down where exactly you've 678 00:27:43,020 --> 00:27:39,739 kind of honed in on this but that is the 679 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:43,030 link between atheism 680 00:27:51,690 --> 00:27:48,730 and the occulted secret worlds of you 681 00:27:54,149 --> 00:27:51,700 know luciferianism Satanism all of that 682 00:27:57,570 --> 00:27:54,159 stuff because there's a link there that 683 00:27:58,770 --> 00:27:57,580 I think hasn't been adequately explored 684 00:28:00,630 --> 00:27:58,780 because again it's a case where these 685 00:28:02,610 --> 00:28:00,640 guys are kind of saying two things on 686 00:28:04,169 --> 00:28:02,620 one hand they're saying hey where 687 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:04,179 there's atheist there's nothing out 688 00:28:10,230 --> 00:28:06,250 there and on the other hand they're kind 689 00:28:13,799 --> 00:28:10,240 of embracing a lot of that occult 690 00:28:16,500 --> 00:28:13,809 practices that are very steeped in a 691 00:28:18,870 --> 00:28:16,510 whole spiritual realm extended 692 00:28:21,570 --> 00:28:18,880 consciousness realm do have any thoughts 693 00:28:23,190 --> 00:28:21,580 on that J yeah absolutely I've been 694 00:28:24,799 --> 00:28:23,200 meaning eventually to get to this but I 695 00:28:27,390 --> 00:28:24,809 just haven't had really the time to 696 00:28:30,180 --> 00:28:27,400 approach it properly and do it justice 697 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:30,190 and that is this precisely what you're 698 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:33,610 getting at that I don't really think the 699 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:37,330 new atheist and atheism in this in this 700 00:28:41,130 --> 00:28:39,130 last few decades has really been 701 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:41,140 popularized I don't think that is 702 00:28:47,070 --> 00:28:45,010 intended to be the final destination I 703 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:47,080 think it's a halfway house that's kind 704 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:50,130 of been put out there to lead people 705 00:28:56,909 --> 00:28:54,730 down a Pied Pipers path basically and I 706 00:28:59,520 --> 00:28:56,919 see that as a kind of alchemical 707 00:29:02,430 --> 00:28:59,530 progression so do you read the works of 708 00:29:06,060 --> 00:29:02,440 say Michael Hoffman he'll talk about how 709 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:06,070 the alchemical process involves taking a 710 00:29:10,529 --> 00:29:07,450 thing and then kind of breaking it down 711 00:29:12,570 --> 00:29:10,539 disintegrating it calcifying it and so 712 00:29:16,350 --> 00:29:12,580 forth and then then you recreate it into 713 00:29:20,399 --> 00:29:16,360 a new form transmutation basically and I 714 00:29:25,260 --> 00:29:20,409 think that the phase or fad of atheism 715 00:29:27,210 --> 00:29:25,270 comes at the late stage of societal 716 00:29:28,799 --> 00:29:27,220 breakdown and religious breakdown 717 00:29:30,630 --> 00:29:28,809 philosophical breakdown and I don't 718 00:29:34,770 --> 00:29:30,640 believe that these breakdowns are 719 00:29:36,870 --> 00:29:34,780 natural or for Arden or are organic I 720 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:36,880 think that they're for the most part 721 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:39,730 kind of imposed from a top-down Oleg 722 00:29:44,100 --> 00:29:41,730 archaic social engineering type 723 00:29:46,649 --> 00:29:44,110 perspective technocratic perspective 724 00:29:48,830 --> 00:29:46,659 basically and so what what I think had 725 00:29:51,090 --> 00:29:48,840 to happen was is that they had to 726 00:29:54,990 --> 00:29:51,100 gradually sort of break down traditional 727 00:29:55,430 --> 00:29:55,000 notions of family and morals and do you 728 00:29:57,590 --> 00:29:55,440 get 729 00:29:58,879 --> 00:29:57,600 Bertrand Russell and hu was actually 730 00:30:00,590 --> 00:29:58,889 talking about this they talked about how 731 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:00,600 they would have to sort of break down 732 00:30:04,310 --> 00:30:03,090 man stamp him out 733 00:30:06,259 --> 00:30:04,320 you know Bertrand Russell talks about 734 00:30:08,930 --> 00:30:06,269 stamping out freewill stamping out man 735 00:30:10,190 --> 00:30:08,940 spirit which by the way why would you 736 00:30:11,509 --> 00:30:10,200 have to stamp it out if the spirit 737 00:30:15,590 --> 00:30:11,519 spirit doesn't exist which is like 738 00:30:17,119 --> 00:30:15,600 interesting question for Russell but you 739 00:30:18,919 --> 00:30:17,129 know Aldous Huxley says the same thing 740 00:30:20,389 --> 00:30:18,929 he said that we the will would have to 741 00:30:23,509 --> 00:30:20,399 be broken and that man would have to be 742 00:30:27,289 --> 00:30:23,519 removed from his pedestal and made to 743 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:27,299 seem meaningless in the midst of a 744 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:29,730 chaotic meaningless universe and so what 745 00:30:34,009 --> 00:30:31,490 you I think what you see through this 746 00:30:36,470 --> 00:30:34,019 facade that's really been sold to 747 00:30:38,180 --> 00:30:36,480 everyone through pop culture and through 748 00:30:40,700 --> 00:30:38,190 pop music and all this kind of stuff you 749 00:30:43,220 --> 00:30:40,710 can begin to see how and through science 750 00:30:45,230 --> 00:30:43,230 right exactly you can begin to well at 751 00:30:46,490 --> 00:30:45,240 the end that actually comes up as I 752 00:30:49,159 --> 00:30:46,500 point out in the book there's a great 753 00:30:51,230 --> 00:30:49,169 section and brave new world where Huxley 754 00:30:54,230 --> 00:30:51,240 admits this because some of the 755 00:30:57,259 --> 00:30:54,240 characters in the novel realize that the 756 00:30:59,659 --> 00:30:57,269 scientism that dominates the world 757 00:31:01,759 --> 00:30:59,669 socialist government in the novel they 758 00:31:05,509 --> 00:31:01,769 realize that it's fraudulent and they 759 00:31:08,269 --> 00:31:05,519 come to the world socialist ruler one of 760 00:31:10,279 --> 00:31:08,279 10 Mustapha Mond and they say hey there 761 00:31:13,009 --> 00:31:10,289 are discoveries that actually disprove 762 00:31:15,350 --> 00:31:13,019 your materialism in your scientism and 763 00:31:17,659 --> 00:31:15,360 he says oh yeah we know that we've we've 764 00:31:19,610 --> 00:31:17,669 known that for a long time and they're 765 00:31:21,379 --> 00:31:19,620 like what why are you suppressing this 766 00:31:22,639 --> 00:31:21,389 and he's like well because it's that's 767 00:31:23,930 --> 00:31:22,649 what has to be you know the people are 768 00:31:26,269 --> 00:31:23,940 never going to accept this they're never 769 00:31:28,340 --> 00:31:26,279 going to they're never going to be 770 00:31:29,930 --> 00:31:28,350 raised beyond their basically 771 00:31:32,740 --> 00:31:29,940 animalistic state you're wasting your 772 00:31:35,090 --> 00:31:32,750 time trying to get people to understand 773 00:31:37,220 --> 00:31:35,100 things about metaphysics or are things 774 00:31:40,639 --> 00:31:37,230 about the spirit or freewill or any of 775 00:31:42,769 --> 00:31:40,649 that stuff or arts or and and in so john 776 00:31:44,749 --> 00:31:42,779 the savage is basically that so you're 777 00:31:47,180 --> 00:31:44,759 saying that scientism that you promote 778 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:47,190 is a religion he says absolutely there's 779 00:31:50,930 --> 00:31:48,690 a scientific orthodoxy 780 00:31:52,610 --> 00:31:50,940 that's promoted top-down that's what the 781 00:31:54,710 --> 00:31:52,620 guy the controller in the novel 782 00:31:57,830 --> 00:31:54,720 literally says so here's one of the most 783 00:31:59,060 --> 00:31:57,840 formative thinkers brains I guess you 784 00:32:01,460 --> 00:31:59,070 could say of the 20th century you know 785 00:32:04,460 --> 00:32:01,470 intimately connected to the Royal 786 00:32:06,980 --> 00:32:04,470 Society to the creation of the UN and 787 00:32:08,359 --> 00:32:06,990 UNESCO and he's basically saying what 788 00:32:09,470 --> 00:32:08,369 I'm saying he's saying that's a fraud 789 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:09,480 scientism is 790 00:32:13,370 --> 00:32:11,730 fraud but it can be promoted as the new 791 00:32:15,919 --> 00:32:13,380 religion and that's why in the novel 792 00:32:17,659 --> 00:32:15,929 that you have this sort of a goose comp 793 00:32:21,590 --> 00:32:17,669 style fake religion that's created a 794 00:32:23,090 --> 00:32:21,600 civic religion based around scientism so 795 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:23,100 I mean everything is in brave new world 796 00:32:27,380 --> 00:32:24,210 by the way if you wanted to see the 797 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:27,390 whole plan laid out that's where we're 798 00:32:31,310 --> 00:32:30,210 going and and science is the religion in 799 00:32:33,020 --> 00:32:31,320 the novel not science 800 00:32:35,690 --> 00:32:33,030 strictly speaking truly speaking but 801 00:32:37,190 --> 00:32:35,700 scientism and Jay you're really saying a 802 00:32:39,350 --> 00:32:37,200 couple of things there that I want to 803 00:32:41,750 --> 00:32:39,360 pick up on because you're saying yes 804 00:32:43,909 --> 00:32:41,760 scientism and science and materialism is 805 00:32:45,350 --> 00:32:43,919 religion we get that but the other thing 806 00:32:47,690 --> 00:32:45,360 you're saying and you're open to at 807 00:32:53,140 --> 00:32:47,700 least is this idea that it's really a 808 00:32:58,070 --> 00:32:53,150 Waystation to something different to 809 00:32:58,880 --> 00:32:58,080 luciferianism Satanism occultism and you 810 00:33:01,400 --> 00:32:58,890 don't let me just tell you a little 811 00:33:04,340 --> 00:33:01,410 story that I ran across there's this guy 812 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:04,350 dr. Richard Wiseman extremely popular 813 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:07,530 British psychologist at some point he 814 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:10,530 had some phony-baloney title of you know 815 00:33:16,490 --> 00:33:14,010 the guy the point person for psychology 816 00:33:17,900 --> 00:33:16,500 education for the UK or something like 817 00:33:18,380 --> 00:33:17,910 that he's been on the show a couple 818 00:33:23,030 --> 00:33:18,390 times 819 00:33:24,620 --> 00:33:23,040 he's a outspoken skeptic so he's in the 820 00:33:26,570 --> 00:33:24,630 face of all these people who were 821 00:33:28,610 --> 00:33:26,580 interested in parapsychology or 822 00:33:30,409 --> 00:33:28,620 near-death experience or anything in 823 00:33:34,340 --> 00:33:30,419 this extended consciousness realm and 824 00:33:36,890 --> 00:33:34,350 he's he's also a outspoken atheist of 825 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:36,900 course but here's the twist here's what 826 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:38,850 I found when I looked into this guy and 827 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:41,250 I think it hits exactly on your point 828 00:33:47,210 --> 00:33:44,730 he's also one of the founders of the 829 00:33:48,860 --> 00:33:47,220 Edinburgh Society and if you go to the 830 00:33:51,230 --> 00:33:48,870 to the website I want to read this for 831 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:51,240 you because it's so telling we staged 832 00:33:55,430 --> 00:33:53,370 events for those of curious disposition 833 00:33:57,970 --> 00:33:55,440 our past evenings have involved 834 00:34:01,490 --> 00:33:57,980 performance of magic optical illusions 835 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:01,500 experiments into fear investigations 836 00:34:08,330 --> 00:34:04,410 into death attempts to contact spirits 837 00:34:09,500 --> 00:34:08,340 and summoning the devil so here it is 838 00:34:12,139 --> 00:34:09,510 and if you go to the website there's 839 00:34:15,830 --> 00:34:12,149 this big picture prominently displayed 840 00:34:18,619 --> 00:34:15,840 of this guy completely outfitted in this 841 00:34:19,510 --> 00:34:18,629 satanic kind of thing right so it's the 842 00:34:21,669 --> 00:34:19,520 thing Hey 843 00:34:23,620 --> 00:34:21,679 and it's cool we're all atheists you 844 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:23,630 know you want to sign this little pact 845 00:34:27,730 --> 00:34:25,490 with Satan it doesn't mean anything 846 00:34:30,130 --> 00:34:27,740 right go ahead sign it you know you want 847 00:34:31,990 --> 00:34:30,140 to perform these rituals hey we're all 848 00:34:34,870 --> 00:34:32,000 atheists it doesn't mean anything right 849 00:34:37,060 --> 00:34:34,880 I mean there's a real mismatch here that 850 00:34:39,550 --> 00:34:37,070 I don't think has drawn enough attention 851 00:34:41,620 --> 00:34:39,560 yeah I'm not familiar with the person 852 00:34:43,330 --> 00:34:41,630 you're talking about but that is a trend 853 00:34:48,010 --> 00:34:43,340 and that's kind of what I'm getting at 854 00:34:50,230 --> 00:34:48,020 is that you you from the technocrat 855 00:34:53,260 --> 00:34:50,240 controller perspective I mean they're 856 00:34:55,470 --> 00:34:53,270 very aware of the fact that atheism and 857 00:34:59,410 --> 00:34:55,480 materialism and reductionism are not 858 00:35:01,480 --> 00:34:59,420 they don't have the power to hold human 859 00:35:03,220 --> 00:35:01,490 belief for very long because they're not 860 00:35:05,770 --> 00:35:03,230 fulfilling their empty and so humans are 861 00:35:07,330 --> 00:35:05,780 always going to be moving towards the 862 00:35:09,250 --> 00:35:07,340 transcendent now from their vantage 863 00:35:10,930 --> 00:35:09,260 point whether they acknowledge the 864 00:35:12,790 --> 00:35:10,940 belief in the transcendent you know 865 00:35:16,380 --> 00:35:12,800 whether they're just still rank atheists 866 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:16,390 and materialists or agnostic or actual 867 00:35:21,190 --> 00:35:19,010 Luciferians or some form of occultist 868 00:35:22,390 --> 00:35:21,200 you know regardless I think from their 869 00:35:25,450 --> 00:35:22,400 vantage point pragmatically speaking 870 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:25,460 they view human psychology that way that 871 00:35:30,790 --> 00:35:27,170 humans are just going to be worshiping 872 00:35:33,100 --> 00:35:30,800 something and so you get along stal ah'd 873 00:35:34,810 --> 00:35:33,110 of them that kind of abuse Compton type 874 00:35:37,930 --> 00:35:34,820 perspective where they I think they 875 00:35:40,690 --> 00:35:37,940 generally think that they can erect and 876 00:35:43,150 --> 00:35:40,700 concoct a new religion for the future 877 00:35:45,100 --> 00:35:43,160 now this is of course what in the UN has 878 00:35:46,540 --> 00:35:45,110 been involved in with a lot of the 879 00:35:49,210 --> 00:35:46,550 ecumenical projects over the last 880 00:35:51,970 --> 00:35:49,220 hundred years back to the first one in 881 00:35:53,650 --> 00:35:51,980 like 1890 3 or 4 in Chicago that kind of 882 00:35:56,500 --> 00:35:53,660 kicked off the ecumenical movement and 883 00:35:58,090 --> 00:35:56,510 then you understand that when you look 884 00:36:00,070 --> 00:35:58,100 into who funded that and who is behind 885 00:36:03,250 --> 00:36:00,080 all that it's it's these big families 886 00:36:05,890 --> 00:36:03,260 this Rockefellers etc you know who had a 887 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:05,900 big stake in UN UNESCO and and that's 888 00:36:11,890 --> 00:36:08,890 why you see that push for this sort of 889 00:36:13,030 --> 00:36:11,900 creation of a new global religion and 890 00:36:16,180 --> 00:36:13,040 what I'm getting is just that the 891 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:16,190 popularization of atheism is really just 892 00:36:20,860 --> 00:36:19,010 one of those phases or stages on the 893 00:36:23,710 --> 00:36:20,870 process towards that and you actually 894 00:36:25,390 --> 00:36:23,720 have Masonic authors kind of writing 895 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:25,400 about this at times kind of giving away 896 00:36:29,740 --> 00:36:27,530 a little bit the game and saying you 897 00:36:32,550 --> 00:36:29,750 know we can actually kind of maybe wreak 898 00:36:34,950 --> 00:36:32,560 a Christian religion and 899 00:36:38,720 --> 00:36:34,960 Islamic religion and then on the the 900 00:36:41,490 --> 00:36:38,730 long haul we can get everybody towards a 901 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:41,500 technocracy where you have this kind of 902 00:36:46,830 --> 00:36:45,130 a Luciferian approach and so in my view 903 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:46,840 I think they probably are testing out 904 00:36:51,660 --> 00:36:49,690 different possibilities I don't think 905 00:36:53,430 --> 00:36:51,670 that the alien mythology has really gone 906 00:36:55,710 --> 00:36:53,440 as well as maybe they thought it would 907 00:36:59,130 --> 00:36:55,720 but I've looked into a lot of really 908 00:37:00,840 --> 00:36:59,140 solid academic approaches to the UFO 909 00:37:03,420 --> 00:37:00,850 phenomenon and you'll find Brookings 910 00:37:06,330 --> 00:37:03,430 Institute papers from a few decades ago 911 00:37:09,210 --> 00:37:06,340 that will actually say that the UFO 912 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:09,220 phenomenon was intended to but basically 913 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:12,010 break down traditional Western theology 914 00:37:16,890 --> 00:37:14,050 now they mentioned basically all the 915 00:37:18,660 --> 00:37:16,900 religions Islam Judaism Christianity but 916 00:37:20,370 --> 00:37:18,670 they really see Christianity as the one 917 00:37:22,290 --> 00:37:20,380 that they I guess because it's the most 918 00:37:23,910 --> 00:37:22,300 prominent you know in the West and 919 00:37:26,090 --> 00:37:23,920 Western civilization as the one that 920 00:37:29,130 --> 00:37:26,100 really needed to be break broken down 921 00:37:31,020 --> 00:37:29,140 and so you know but back in the 60s and 922 00:37:34,290 --> 00:37:31,030 70s you know Brooks Institute was saying 923 00:37:35,910 --> 00:37:34,300 that maybe you know maybe the UFO 924 00:37:38,700 --> 00:37:35,920 phenomena could do that now I don't know 925 00:37:40,290 --> 00:37:38,710 that it's been that successful but you 926 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:40,300 know there's other possibilities of what 927 00:37:44,550 --> 00:37:41,770 could be done they could they might try 928 00:37:48,780 --> 00:37:44,560 to and we don't know to be fair whether 929 00:37:52,110 --> 00:37:48,790 that's a co-opting of a real phenomenon 930 00:37:53,850 --> 00:37:52,120 or if it's a completely manufactured 931 00:37:56,340 --> 00:37:53,860 phenomenon and they're just a rat's nest 932 00:37:58,080 --> 00:37:56,350 of stuff to pull up Arthur right right 933 00:37:59,580 --> 00:37:58,090 I'm not trying to say that I know 934 00:38:02,490 --> 00:37:59,590 everything but the UFO phenomenon I 935 00:38:04,260 --> 00:38:02,500 think there are anomalies and in you 936 00:38:06,030 --> 00:38:04,270 know stellar phenomena that we don't 937 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:06,040 explain or we can't explain her don't 938 00:38:09,720 --> 00:38:07,810 know about or yeah I'm not trying I'm 939 00:38:13,830 --> 00:38:09,730 just saying what that paper says that 940 00:38:16,890 --> 00:38:13,840 they might try to do and I can give you 941 00:38:20,610 --> 00:38:16,900 the book if you want to reference that 942 00:38:22,980 --> 00:38:20,620 the book is the lure of the edge by 943 00:38:25,020 --> 00:38:22,990 denzler the scientific passions a 944 00:38:27,170 --> 00:38:25,030 religious belief and the pursuit of UFOs 945 00:38:30,660 --> 00:38:27,180 and she's kind of an academic just 946 00:38:32,190 --> 00:38:30,670 looking at this phenomenon and she again 947 00:38:35,390 --> 00:38:32,200 the reason I bring that book up is just 948 00:38:38,430 --> 00:38:35,400 that she notes many times in there how 949 00:38:40,260 --> 00:38:38,440 useful this is for religions and so I 950 00:38:44,430 --> 00:38:40,270 think that you can look at the CIA's 951 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:44,440 involvement in UFO colt's again that's 952 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:46,370 been pretty pretty well 953 00:38:50,740 --> 00:38:48,050 documented for many years now I don't 954 00:38:54,330 --> 00:38:50,750 think there's a lot of dispute over that 955 00:38:57,430 --> 00:38:54,340 but I think that you can probably 956 00:38:59,950 --> 00:38:57,440 surmise and again I have it taken the 957 00:39:02,790 --> 00:38:59,960 time to dig into this but if I if I 958 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:02,800 recall there is some connection to 959 00:39:09,250 --> 00:39:07,130 funding for skeptical movements oh yeah 960 00:39:13,270 --> 00:39:09,260 well definitely and I think I think 961 00:39:14,830 --> 00:39:13,280 these entities have a lot of no probably 962 00:39:17,590 --> 00:39:14,840 foundation money and that kind of stuff 963 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:17,600 so so they're not actually skeptics and 964 00:39:22,930 --> 00:39:20,690 I think that one of one of my friends 965 00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:22,940 accurately stated it that they're 966 00:39:27,130 --> 00:39:25,250 pathological skeptics and so the irony 967 00:39:30,010 --> 00:39:27,140 here is that those worldviews are 968 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:30,020 actually preset and pre-programmed to 969 00:39:36,310 --> 00:39:33,050 again interpret the data according to 970 00:39:38,140 --> 00:39:36,320 the quote skeptic worldview so well and 971 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:38,150 that's one manifestation of it the other 972 00:39:42,130 --> 00:39:41,570 is that it's pure SIOP I mean just step 973 00:39:44,980 --> 00:39:42,140 back 974 00:39:46,810 --> 00:39:44,990 there's status quo supporters up and 975 00:39:49,180 --> 00:39:46,820 down you know so you get to something 976 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:49,190 like climate change if you will where 977 00:39:53,710 --> 00:39:51,050 you say okay well let's look at the 978 00:39:55,630 --> 00:39:53,720 skeptical perspective and know now all 979 00:39:56,950 --> 00:39:55,640 of a sudden the skeptical perspective 980 00:39:59,770 --> 00:39:56,960 switches over to the other side because 981 00:40:03,790 --> 00:39:59,780 what it's really about is promoting 982 00:40:05,980 --> 00:40:03,800 defending the status quo it's the dog on 983 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:05,990 a chain you know it's the barking dog 984 00:40:10,630 --> 00:40:08,330 that they can put out there and what I 985 00:40:13,330 --> 00:40:10,640 found it through you know kind of the 986 00:40:15,850 --> 00:40:13,340 investigation of parapsychology SCI and 987 00:40:18,190 --> 00:40:15,860 consciousness is that what scientists do 988 00:40:19,870 --> 00:40:18,200 is they hide behind that right so they 989 00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:19,880 can be the barking dog out front and 990 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:22,250 then scientists can kind of come in and 991 00:40:25,630 --> 00:40:23,810 say well you know we're trying to be 992 00:40:27,580 --> 00:40:25,640 reasonable about this all the rest and 993 00:40:29,620 --> 00:40:27,590 meanwhile you have the barking dog out 994 00:40:31,210 --> 00:40:29,630 there that you can't get past but I 995 00:40:34,090 --> 00:40:31,220 think that's passed I mean I think the 996 00:40:36,250 --> 00:40:34,100 sceptical thing if you will is over and 997 00:40:39,550 --> 00:40:36,260 I think people are onto the pseudo 998 00:40:41,710 --> 00:40:39,560 skeptical reality that it's really there 999 00:40:43,750 --> 00:40:41,720 I hope so 1000 00:40:47,170 --> 00:40:43,760 I've had a couple of these skeptics try 1001 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:47,180 to write the qisas about me which were 1002 00:40:51,250 --> 00:40:49,090 they're completely dishonest in 1003 00:40:53,140 --> 00:40:51,260 attributing all kinds of things to me 1004 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:53,150 that I done they're completely disabled 1005 00:40:57,430 --> 00:40:55,490 that they have the ethos is the end 1006 00:40:59,080 --> 00:40:57,440 justifies the means right so it's just 1007 00:41:00,250 --> 00:40:59,090 the whole social warrior thing we see 1008 00:41:01,720 --> 00:41:00,260 now it's like hey 1009 00:41:04,750 --> 00:41:01,730 I've been victimized so therefore 1010 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:04,760 anything I do is justified because your 1011 00:41:08,290 --> 00:41:07,010 message is done it's just a twisted kind 1012 00:41:10,599 --> 00:41:08,300 of thing that we've seen over and over 1013 00:41:13,060 --> 00:41:10,609 again it gets real political really fast 1014 00:41:17,500 --> 00:41:13,070 but well then I think that the one of 1015 00:41:19,630 --> 00:41:17,510 the clearest proofs of of it being a 1016 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:19,640 PSYOP and social engineering is the sort 1017 00:41:25,590 --> 00:41:22,490 of caving of many of these new atheists 1018 00:41:27,250 --> 00:41:25,600 to promoting the the alien idea now 1019 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:27,260 regardless of what you believe about 1020 00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:30,290 aliens or UFOs the fact that you know 1021 00:41:34,810 --> 00:41:31,730 something that was laughed at and 1022 00:41:37,540 --> 00:41:34,820 sneered at by the skeptic community 20 1023 00:41:40,990 --> 00:41:37,550 years ago you know you can go back and 1024 00:41:42,460 --> 00:41:41,000 find old magazine copies of skeptic 1025 00:41:44,140 --> 00:41:42,470 magazine with Michael Shermer in these 1026 00:41:46,570 --> 00:41:44,150 guys and you know they'll just debunk 1027 00:41:49,060 --> 00:41:46,580 UFOs and aliens oh but now you know 1028 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:49,070 Stephen Hawking and Richard Dawkins can 1029 00:41:55,030 --> 00:41:51,650 talk about the pence Burma and pence 1030 00:41:58,290 --> 00:41:55,040 cycle and the idea of an emergent just 1031 00:42:01,660 --> 00:41:58,300 repackage pantheism as the new approach 1032 00:42:04,210 --> 00:42:01,670 so that to meet is just laughable 1033 00:42:05,950 --> 00:42:04,220 because you know there again completely 1034 00:42:08,020 --> 00:42:05,960 contradicting themselves from a few 1035 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:08,030 decades ago what they were absolutely 1036 00:42:12,700 --> 00:42:10,010 certain about right that this is a 1037 00:42:13,300 --> 00:42:12,710 ridiculous staged phenomenon to joke 1038 00:42:15,730 --> 00:42:13,310 it's a hoax 1039 00:42:17,620 --> 00:42:15,740 so and now they're but but but that 1040 00:42:19,780 --> 00:42:17,630 blends very well with Darwinism you know 1041 00:42:21,430 --> 00:42:19,790 that the idea that that we're created by 1042 00:42:23,410 --> 00:42:21,440 aliens and all this kind of stuff and 1043 00:42:26,050 --> 00:42:23,420 again I mean it just it just sort of 1044 00:42:31,990 --> 00:42:26,060 begs the question that that what is 1045 00:42:34,090 --> 00:42:32,000 considered superstition or or what we're 1046 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:34,100 skeptical about setting the parameters 1047 00:42:38,500 --> 00:42:36,650 of role allowed to be skeptical about is 1048 00:42:40,780 --> 00:42:38,510 completely arbitrary by these people 1049 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:40,790 well said setting the parameters so 1050 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:42,890 let's move on to another topic and I 1051 00:42:49,150 --> 00:42:45,290 appreciate that these are maybe not 1052 00:42:51,609 --> 00:42:49,160 totally down what you cover a lot but I 1053 00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:51,619 think again if people check out this is 1054 00:42:56,859 --> 00:42:55,010 great I'm so tired of doing the same 1055 00:42:59,290 --> 00:42:56,869 interviews over and over so I well good 1056 00:43:01,599 --> 00:42:59,300 but but I want to encourage people to 1057 00:43:04,390 --> 00:43:01,609 check out Jays work I mean like the 1058 00:43:06,700 --> 00:43:04,400 geopolitical stuff fascinating I just 1059 00:43:08,650 --> 00:43:06,710 ran I just stumbled across really the 1060 00:43:11,410 --> 00:43:08,660 whole thing that you did recently on 1061 00:43:13,599 --> 00:43:11,420 North Korea and the fake photographs and 1062 00:43:15,220 --> 00:43:13,609 I know it gets conspiratorial too 1063 00:43:17,019 --> 00:43:15,230 people a lot of skeptical listeners as 1064 00:43:18,519 --> 00:43:17,029 soon as it sounds conspiratorial they're 1065 00:43:20,739 --> 00:43:18,529 like I'm out of here you know I can't 1066 00:43:21,970 --> 00:43:20,749 deal with it which I don't want to say 1067 00:43:24,489 --> 00:43:21,980 it's okay because it's really not okay 1068 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:24,499 but you I get that that's where people 1069 00:43:28,420 --> 00:43:26,450 are coming from but like that stuff was 1070 00:43:30,729 --> 00:43:28,430 just brilliant and it's completely off 1071 00:43:33,519 --> 00:43:30,739 topic with anything we're going to talk 1072 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:33,529 about today as is a lot of the movie 1073 00:43:38,410 --> 00:43:35,210 analysis you do I mean just about any 1074 00:43:42,329 --> 00:43:38,420 movie someone can think of that has this 1075 00:43:44,710 --> 00:43:42,339 meaningful connection to society or 1076 00:43:46,779 --> 00:43:44,720 philosophical big-picture issues you've 1077 00:43:49,059 --> 00:43:46,789 done a breakdown of it and I want to 1078 00:43:51,460 --> 00:43:49,069 encourage people to go check that out 1079 00:43:54,519 --> 00:43:51,470 even though we might not deal with that 1080 00:43:56,470 --> 00:43:54,529 in depth during this interview briefly 1081 00:43:58,900 --> 00:43:56,480 on the North Korea thing I'll say that 1082 00:44:01,380 --> 00:43:58,910 you know most people have received that 1083 00:44:05,289 --> 00:44:01,390 pretty fairly well I think over the last 1084 00:44:07,989 --> 00:44:05,299 I wrote the article several years ago 1085 00:44:09,370 --> 00:44:07,999 and you know since then and then the 1086 00:44:11,319 --> 00:44:09,380 recent videos that I've done this 1087 00:44:12,910 --> 00:44:11,329 probably had I don't know thirty twenty 1088 00:44:16,029 --> 00:44:12,920 or thirty thousand views which is not 1089 00:44:19,979 --> 00:44:16,039 that big of a deal but I'm surprised 1090 00:44:22,839 --> 00:44:19,989 that it was as well received because I 1091 00:44:25,539 --> 00:44:22,849 think a lot of people are still caught 1092 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:25,549 in the mindset that we live in this 1093 00:44:30,999 --> 00:44:29,450 world of battling nation-states and you 1094 00:44:33,549 --> 00:44:31,009 know I'm still in a learning process 1095 00:44:36,999 --> 00:44:33,559 myself I'm kind of a young guy I don't 1096 00:44:38,859 --> 00:44:37,009 claim to be a geopolitical expert for me 1097 00:44:41,529 --> 00:44:38,869 it's just a learning process as well so 1098 00:44:45,910 --> 00:44:41,539 you know I really dope into geopolitics 1099 00:44:47,170 --> 00:44:45,920 in my grad school period I was kind of 1100 00:44:49,450 --> 00:44:47,180 forced into that what I was when I was 1101 00:44:51,009 --> 00:44:49,460 writing my thesis and I already had some 1102 00:44:54,579 --> 00:44:51,019 interest in it with you know listening 1103 00:44:56,019 --> 00:44:54,589 to talk shows and talk radio and all 1104 00:44:57,940 --> 00:44:56,029 which is kind of watered down and 1105 00:45:00,640 --> 00:44:57,950 sanitized but you know the more you get 1106 00:45:03,370 --> 00:45:00,650 into studying espionage and studying the 1107 00:45:05,109 --> 00:45:03,380 history of geopolitical maneuvers it 1108 00:45:07,870 --> 00:45:05,119 becomes really fascinating it's kind of 1109 00:45:09,970 --> 00:45:07,880 a big puzzle puzzle piece but but what 1110 00:45:13,809 --> 00:45:09,980 you start to realize when you get into 1111 00:45:15,460 --> 00:45:13,819 the big tomes like tragedy and hope by 1112 00:45:18,519 --> 00:45:15,470 dr. Carroll Quigley is that a lot of 1113 00:45:21,130 --> 00:45:18,529 what has been going on in the last you 1114 00:45:24,430 --> 00:45:21,140 know post-world War two Cold War era a 1115 00:45:26,799 --> 00:45:24,440 lot of it is is theatrical now that's 1116 00:45:27,099 --> 00:45:26,809 not to say that and I have a lot of 1117 00:45:29,620 --> 00:45:27,109 people 1118 00:45:31,420 --> 00:45:29,630 give me flack over this so I have to be 1119 00:45:34,329 --> 00:45:31,430 be clear about what I'm saying I'm not 1120 00:45:38,049 --> 00:45:34,339 saying that there aren't people who die 1121 00:45:41,019 --> 00:45:38,059 in wars or that there's not you know CIA 1122 00:45:44,469 --> 00:45:41,029 people who bust Russian spies or that 1123 00:45:45,819 --> 00:45:44,479 Russians don't at times bust Western 1124 00:45:49,089 --> 00:45:45,829 agent I'm not saying that that doesn't 1125 00:45:50,739 --> 00:45:49,099 happen on out there in the world what 1126 00:45:53,589 --> 00:45:50,749 I'm saying is that when you get to the 1127 00:45:55,660 --> 00:45:53,599 highest levels of you know who are the 1128 00:45:57,099 --> 00:45:55,670 wealthiest people in various countries 1129 00:46:00,430 --> 00:45:57,109 you know who are the billionaire 1130 00:46:02,410 --> 00:46:00,440 oligarchs in Russia you know how wealthy 1131 00:46:04,959 --> 00:46:02,420 is Kim jong-eun you know what I mean how 1132 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:04,969 wealthy is Castro you know who's running 1133 00:46:08,739 --> 00:46:06,890 the United States when you start looking 1134 00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:08,749 at it from that perspective and you and 1135 00:46:14,769 --> 00:46:12,170 when you've studied mafia and the mob 1136 00:46:17,289 --> 00:46:14,779 and how they worked and you start to see 1137 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:17,299 that it's really big cartels that that 1138 00:46:21,489 --> 00:46:18,410 are running things and when you 1139 00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:21,499 understand as that recent study was done 1140 00:46:26,049 --> 00:46:23,930 and I'm not I don't put that big of a 1141 00:46:27,459 --> 00:46:26,059 deal or big of an emphasis on 1142 00:46:28,449 --> 00:46:27,469 peer-reviewed studies but you know there 1143 00:46:30,999 --> 00:46:28,459 was that recent 1144 00:46:32,739 --> 00:46:31,009 peer review study about corporate 1145 00:46:35,319 --> 00:46:32,749 control and I think there was a whole 1146 00:46:37,630 --> 00:46:35,329 TED talk done on it and it basically 1147 00:46:40,479 --> 00:46:37,640 demonstrates that there's a network of 1148 00:46:42,670 --> 00:46:40,489 you know a select number of corporations 1149 00:46:45,249 --> 00:46:42,680 and shareholders and 600 you know 1150 00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:45,259 locking directors exactly that basically 1151 00:46:51,339 --> 00:46:49,130 control you know the global market so 1152 00:46:52,989 --> 00:46:51,349 that is a but hold on again that's just 1153 00:46:54,430 --> 00:46:52,999 going to freak people out I tell you 1154 00:46:56,349 --> 00:46:54,440 what I want to leave that topic but I 1155 00:46:59,410 --> 00:46:56,359 want to leave it with one tidbit that 1156 00:47:01,900 --> 00:46:59,420 might spark curiosity to go check out 1157 00:47:05,529 --> 00:47:01,910 Jays work and the North Korea thing and 1158 00:47:08,319 --> 00:47:05,539 that's Commodore 64 so if your computer 1159 00:47:11,769 --> 00:47:08,329 buff that's all I'm gonna say but look 1160 00:47:13,749 --> 00:47:11,779 for Commodore 64 and check that out and 1161 00:47:15,130 --> 00:47:13,759 then if we can let's let's move on 1162 00:47:17,439 --> 00:47:15,140 because I got some cool stuff about 1163 00:47:20,439 --> 00:47:17,449 consciousness that I really want to dip 1164 00:47:22,329 --> 00:47:20,449 into in three yeah just one last point 1165 00:47:24,670 --> 00:47:22,339 I'll just say that that you know I'm not 1166 00:47:26,219 --> 00:47:24,680 making a definitive statement on North 1167 00:47:27,910 --> 00:47:26,229 Korea I'm just kind of throwing a 1168 00:47:31,779 --> 00:47:27,920 possibility out there and I'm saying 1169 00:47:34,390 --> 00:47:31,789 that maybe the ultimate thesis is 1170 00:47:36,130 --> 00:47:34,400 similar to cervando Gonzalez's who's an 1171 00:47:37,809 --> 00:47:36,140 intelligence analyst by the way he's not 1172 00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:37,819 just some conspiracy theorist he wrote a 1173 00:47:40,780 --> 00:47:40,249 famous book called a psychological 1174 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:40,790 warfare in 1175 00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:42,970 new world order and in that book he 1176 00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:46,370 poses the thesis that maybe some of 1177 00:47:52,240 --> 00:47:49,130 these so-called villains like Hugo 1178 00:47:53,020 --> 00:47:52,250 Chavez or Castro and I'm including maybe 1179 00:47:56,710 --> 00:47:53,030 kim jeong-hoon 1180 00:47:58,990 --> 00:47:56,720 maybe these people are allowed to remain 1181 00:48:02,110 --> 00:47:59,000 in these regions for the justification 1182 00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:02,120 of Pentagon foreign policy and that's 1183 00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:04,130 really the thesis here so it's not 1184 00:48:07,090 --> 00:48:05,450 saying that they're that they're not bad 1185 00:48:09,190 --> 00:48:07,100 guys that they're not villains that 1186 00:48:11,950 --> 00:48:09,200 they're not tyrants it's just saying 1187 00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:11,960 that they're a tyrants on a leash 1188 00:48:17,620 --> 00:48:15,650 basically and they they justify Oh we'll 1189 00:48:19,150 --> 00:48:17,630 see we've got to actually have six to 1190 00:48:22,150 --> 00:48:19,160 eight hundred you know US bases 1191 00:48:23,980 --> 00:48:22,160 everywhere because well well we got to 1192 00:48:25,720 --> 00:48:23,990 keep a watch on Castro we've got to keep 1193 00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:25,730 a watch on Kim Jong and you see what I'm 1194 00:48:30,610 --> 00:48:29,210 saying absolutely one of the things I 1195 00:48:32,590 --> 00:48:30,620 want to pick up on is you know we're 1196 00:48:35,140 --> 00:48:32,600 talking about the skeptics in this game 1197 00:48:39,780 --> 00:48:35,150 that's being played with the New Atheism 1198 00:48:42,100 --> 00:48:39,790 and then whatever the occulted 1199 00:48:44,890 --> 00:48:42,110 spirituality is that that's behind that 1200 00:48:46,420 --> 00:48:44,900 the other purpose I think for that is to 1201 00:48:49,570 --> 00:48:46,430 kind of just keep us spinning our wheels 1202 00:48:51,940 --> 00:48:49,580 if you will and to keep science spinning 1203 00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:51,950 its wheels if you look at frontier 1204 00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:53,570 science and people who really want to 1205 00:48:58,780 --> 00:48:56,450 explore what consciousness might really 1206 00:49:01,230 --> 00:48:58,790 mean and near-death experience for 1207 00:49:03,460 --> 00:49:01,240 example where there's some real science 1208 00:49:05,170 --> 00:49:03,470 reincarnation there's real science at 1209 00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:05,180 the University of Virginia people doing 1210 00:49:10,540 --> 00:49:07,850 it so I think part of the agenda is to 1211 00:49:13,240 --> 00:49:10,550 stifle that you know take closet from 1212 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:13,250 really going anywhere what are your 1213 00:49:20,620 --> 00:49:16,850 thoughts have you looked into those that 1214 00:49:22,870 --> 00:49:20,630 science that is attempting to map out 1215 00:49:24,940 --> 00:49:22,880 that extended consciousness realm that 1216 00:49:27,190 --> 00:49:24,950 spiritual realm and do you have any 1217 00:49:29,830 --> 00:49:27,200 thoughts on near-death experience 1218 00:49:31,990 --> 00:49:29,840 reincarnation and and and whether we can 1219 00:49:34,930 --> 00:49:32,000 approach that from a scientist 1220 00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:34,940 scientific basis in a real scientific 1221 00:49:38,860 --> 00:49:36,530 basis like we're talking about the 1222 00:49:42,190 --> 00:49:38,870 scientific methodology the scientific 1223 00:49:44,770 --> 00:49:42,200 spirit of inquiry yeah 1224 00:49:47,470 --> 00:49:44,780 you're seeing the movie Flatliners sure 1225 00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:47,480 sure the bad movie but the but knob 1226 00:49:54,130 --> 00:49:52,490 kidding um yes I am familiar with you 1227 00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:54,140 know you have like Rupert Sheldrake who 1228 00:49:57,880 --> 00:49:54,650 I think has 1229 00:50:00,490 --> 00:49:57,890 a lot of really interesting insights iír 1230 00:50:04,780 --> 00:50:00,500 tend to approach things from an orthodox 1231 00:50:07,510 --> 00:50:04,790 perspective and so I have an essay that 1232 00:50:10,900 --> 00:50:07,520 I wrote about the fractured psyche that 1233 00:50:14,250 --> 00:50:10,910 kind of gets into that and there's a an 1234 00:50:17,170 --> 00:50:14,260 Orthodox guy famous theologian named 1235 00:50:21,670 --> 00:50:17,180 metropolitan hero Theo's of Lagos and he 1236 00:50:23,650 --> 00:50:21,680 has books on Orthodox psychotherapy that 1237 00:50:28,900 --> 00:50:23,660 gets into this notion interestingly of 1238 00:50:31,450 --> 00:50:28,910 the split or divided psyche and I think 1239 00:50:33,550 --> 00:50:31,460 that this is something that religions 1240 00:50:35,860 --> 00:50:33,560 have talked about for a long time you 1241 00:50:37,720 --> 00:50:35,870 know not just Christian theology or 1242 00:50:40,210 --> 00:50:37,730 Eastern Orthodox theology but other 1243 00:50:43,060 --> 00:50:40,220 religions have positive this thesis too 1244 00:50:45,730 --> 00:50:43,070 and you know what modern quote science 1245 00:50:50,020 --> 00:50:45,740 wants to do so often is basically toss 1246 00:50:52,210 --> 00:50:50,030 out any kind of insights or knowledge 1247 00:50:55,210 --> 00:50:52,220 that might be gained from wisdom or 1248 00:50:57,630 --> 00:50:55,220 tradition which is really kind of absurd 1249 00:51:01,090 --> 00:50:57,640 because if you if you think about it 1250 00:51:04,510 --> 00:51:01,100 science itself as well as logic is not 1251 00:51:07,270 --> 00:51:04,520 something that comes to us to a vacuum I 1252 00:51:09,310 --> 00:51:07,280 mean we get this as an inheritance from 1253 00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:09,320 at least for us from you know Aristotle 1254 00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:11,450 in the Western tradition no philosophy 1255 00:51:17,590 --> 00:51:14,570 no Aristotle was more of a more of a 1256 00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:17,600 natural scientist you might say and I'm 1257 00:51:20,770 --> 00:51:19,130 not trying to exalt aerosol I'm just 1258 00:51:23,530 --> 00:51:20,780 saying it you know we don't think about 1259 00:51:25,630 --> 00:51:23,540 the fact that this that symbolic logic 1260 00:51:30,190 --> 00:51:25,640 comes to us you know as an inheritance 1261 00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:30,200 of a tradition actually so there I think 1262 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:31,610 there are a lot of insights that can be 1263 00:51:35,650 --> 00:51:34,010 gained to this kind of stuff in in 1264 00:51:40,810 --> 00:51:35,660 theology and in religion and 1265 00:51:43,270 --> 00:51:40,820 spirituality and so when I if I'm if I'm 1266 00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:43,280 going to approach the possibility of 1267 00:51:49,330 --> 00:51:45,530 scientific evidence for things like the 1268 00:51:51,010 --> 00:51:49,340 psyche or things like you know out of 1269 00:51:53,230 --> 00:51:51,020 death experiences or consciousness in 1270 00:51:57,340 --> 00:51:53,240 different modalities or planes of 1271 00:52:00,580 --> 00:51:57,350 existence I think that the that there 1272 00:52:05,620 --> 00:52:00,590 would have to be a reorientation of how 1273 00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:05,630 we view evidences and the science of the 1274 00:52:08,500 --> 00:52:07,490 self so you've read about that what do 1275 00:52:10,030 --> 00:52:08,510 you run so what 1276 00:52:14,380 --> 00:52:10,040 earlier when I was talking about for 1277 00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:14,390 example the notion of the identity of 1278 00:52:18,070 --> 00:52:16,490 the self over time and how you know 1279 00:52:22,210 --> 00:52:18,080 that's kind of a problem for the 1280 00:52:24,220 --> 00:52:22,220 reductionist materialist what I believe 1281 00:52:26,710 --> 00:52:24,230 is that there's actually a kind of 1282 00:52:29,220 --> 00:52:26,720 argumentation a logical argumentation or 1283 00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:29,230 proof that shows us how those things are 1284 00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:31,010 and this is what's called a 1285 00:52:35,859 --> 00:52:33,770 transcendental argument now I are you 1286 00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:35,869 and I believe very firmly that this is a 1287 00:52:43,210 --> 00:52:40,490 valid form of logic so it's not exactly 1288 00:52:45,130 --> 00:52:43,220 the same as symbolic logic because it's 1289 00:52:49,090 --> 00:52:45,140 a little bit more fundamental and so 1290 00:52:52,510 --> 00:52:49,100 it's kind of asking a question at a meta 1291 00:52:54,670 --> 00:52:52,520 level to make to make it clear so for 1292 00:52:56,650 --> 00:52:54,680 example a meta level question would be 1293 00:52:57,970 --> 00:52:56,660 and this is actually this actually 1294 00:53:00,820 --> 00:52:57,980 happens in mathematics and philosophy 1295 00:53:05,790 --> 00:53:00,830 this is not just making this up so like 1296 00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:05,800 if we were to ask the question how does 1297 00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:09,170 logic work right I mean we use logic but 1298 00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:10,970 then if we step back a little bit from 1299 00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:12,410 maybe a God's eye perspective and say 1300 00:53:19,359 --> 00:53:15,770 how does logic itself function that 1301 00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:19,369 would be a meta logical question and 1302 00:53:23,530 --> 00:53:20,810 this comes up and things like math 1303 00:53:24,910 --> 00:53:23,540 theory as well so these kinds of 1304 00:53:26,410 --> 00:53:24,920 questions have been dealt with and 1305 00:53:27,940 --> 00:53:26,420 they've been asked by philosophers and 1306 00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:27,950 then this is where it kind of bridges 1307 00:53:33,910 --> 00:53:31,010 over into theology or or more 1308 00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:33,920 transcendental questions and so since 1309 00:53:42,670 --> 00:53:38,050 there there's not really a test tube or 1310 00:53:45,220 --> 00:53:42,680 microscope type of proof for something 1311 00:53:47,590 --> 00:53:45,230 like a law of logic or something like a 1312 00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:47,600 mathematical principle or something like 1313 00:53:52,109 --> 00:53:50,210 the self or the soul what we end up 1314 00:53:55,180 --> 00:53:52,119 finding is that all those things kind of 1315 00:53:57,640 --> 00:53:55,190 kind of get stuck in this category of 1316 00:54:01,810 --> 00:53:57,650 the immaterial or the spiritual or the 1317 00:54:03,570 --> 00:54:01,820 conceptual or the ideal or whatever kind 1318 00:54:06,820 --> 00:54:03,580 of terms you want to use to describe it 1319 00:54:10,170 --> 00:54:06,830 that by the nature of what they are they 1320 00:54:13,510 --> 00:54:10,180 can't be demonstrated or proven 1321 00:54:15,010 --> 00:54:13,520 empirically so we might think well then 1322 00:54:16,240 --> 00:54:15,020 we're in a quandary we could never prove 1323 00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:16,250 those things we can never know those 1324 00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:17,570 things a lot of people have gone down 1325 00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:19,690 that route I don't think so I think that 1326 00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:22,370 if you look for example the way era 1327 00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:25,490 although responded to the sofas when 1328 00:54:30,460 --> 00:54:27,410 they asked him this question they said 1329 00:54:33,490 --> 00:54:30,470 well how can you prove the law of 1330 00:54:35,830 --> 00:54:33,500 non-contradiction that's true in other 1331 00:54:36,730 --> 00:54:35,840 words if what if I come along and I say 1332 00:54:38,740 --> 00:54:36,740 as a skeptic 1333 00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:38,750 Aristotle well I just don't accept your 1334 00:54:41,310 --> 00:54:40,130 law of non-contradiction I think that 1335 00:54:44,470 --> 00:54:41,320 it's a fraud 1336 00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:44,480 Aristotle responds by saying well I can 1337 00:54:49,060 --> 00:54:47,330 prove to you that even in the process of 1338 00:54:50,770 --> 00:54:49,070 your denying the law of 1339 00:54:53,650 --> 00:54:50,780 non-contradiction you're still assuming 1340 00:54:57,430 --> 00:54:53,660 it so you're still using logic and rules 1341 00:54:59,860 --> 00:54:57,440 and laws about reasoning in the process 1342 00:55:01,840 --> 00:54:59,870 of denying laws about logic and 1343 00:55:03,430 --> 00:55:01,850 reasoning so you're already involved in 1344 00:55:06,190 --> 00:55:03,440 a contradiction and so in other words he 1345 00:55:07,660 --> 00:55:06,200 says this is a transcendental category 1346 00:55:10,990 --> 00:55:07,670 it's a it's a something that's a 1347 00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:11,000 precondition for logic precondition for 1348 00:55:16,060 --> 00:55:13,970 argumentation period and so just because 1349 00:55:17,650 --> 00:55:16,070 it's not demonstrated in the same way 1350 00:55:20,290 --> 00:55:17,660 that other things are demonstrated does 1351 00:55:23,830 --> 00:55:20,300 it mean that it's not true or provable 1352 00:55:27,390 --> 00:55:23,840 or certain and so in the same way things 1353 00:55:29,470 --> 00:55:27,400 like God or things like the self are 1354 00:55:32,410 --> 00:55:29,480 transcendental preconditions for 1355 00:55:34,870 --> 00:55:32,420 experience now somebody might say oh 1356 00:55:37,900 --> 00:55:34,880 well you're just using Conte no actually 1357 00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:37,910 again this goes back pre content it's 1358 00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:39,770 not caught took these kind of ideas and 1359 00:55:44,380 --> 00:55:41,570 then kind of turn that into a thing 1360 00:55:46,300 --> 00:55:44,390 where he said oh you know the mind is 1361 00:55:48,610 --> 00:55:46,310 the transcendental category that that 1362 00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:48,620 orders everything and everything is 1363 00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:50,210 really just a manifestation of our mind 1364 00:55:53,980 --> 00:55:51,410 I don't believe that I believe there's a 1365 00:55:55,240 --> 00:55:53,990 there's a common you know objective 1366 00:55:57,160 --> 00:55:55,250 external world that we all experience 1367 00:55:59,470 --> 00:55:57,170 it's not just my mind that's creating 1368 00:56:01,360 --> 00:55:59,480 all this reality it's not solipsism in 1369 00:56:03,970 --> 00:56:01,370 other words content ism you know 1370 00:56:05,950 --> 00:56:03,980 devolves back into solipsism so anyway 1371 00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:05,960 this is a long answer to your question 1372 00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:08,170 and that is just simply to say that I 1373 00:56:14,710 --> 00:56:10,490 think that what would what would have to 1374 00:56:17,670 --> 00:56:14,720 happen is a reorienting of the way that 1375 00:56:21,090 --> 00:56:17,680 we think about the self and logic and 1376 00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:21,100 immaterial and conceptual entities and 1377 00:56:26,790 --> 00:56:22,970 understanding that they're there they 1378 00:56:30,610 --> 00:56:26,800 are actually more fundamental than our 1379 00:56:33,060 --> 00:56:30,620 empirical quote material experience of 1380 00:56:35,470 --> 00:56:33,070 life I don't think I'm not saying that 1381 00:56:36,240 --> 00:56:35,480 material phenomena don't exist but I'm 1382 00:56:40,410 --> 00:56:36,250 saying that I 1383 00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:40,420 believe that reality is not atom ism 1384 00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:44,530 it's not materialism it's most of what 1385 00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:46,930 we experience is basically energy that's 1386 00:56:52,620 --> 00:56:50,290 just sort of in different forms it's not 1387 00:56:55,410 --> 00:56:52,630 doing we're just so entrained to think 1388 00:56:57,600 --> 00:56:55,420 of the world as matter and this is 1389 00:56:59,430 --> 00:56:57,610 really again part of that Newtonian 1390 00:57:02,160 --> 00:56:59,440 propaganda and the promotion of 1391 00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:02,170 Newtonian atomism which is again a world 1392 00:57:07,410 --> 00:57:04,570 view it's a pre-sub position and until 1393 00:57:09,690 --> 00:57:07,420 you question Newtonian presuppositions 1394 00:57:11,580 --> 00:57:09,700 you don't really think outside of these 1395 00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:11,590 paradigms and so I don't think anybody's 1396 00:57:15,540 --> 00:57:12,610 going to have a whole lot of success 1397 00:57:17,970 --> 00:57:15,550 with demonstrating those kinds of things 1398 00:57:20,460 --> 00:57:17,980 until they reorient and start thinking 1399 00:57:22,410 --> 00:57:20,470 in a transcendental / presuppositional 1400 00:57:23,910 --> 00:57:22,420 approach to things now their husbands 1401 00:57:25,230 --> 00:57:23,920 there have been philosophers and 1402 00:57:27,750 --> 00:57:25,240 mathematicians you've already been doing 1403 00:57:29,550 --> 00:57:27,760 this you have Roger Penrose kind of 1404 00:57:31,250 --> 00:57:29,560 speaking this way you have kurt gödel 1405 00:57:35,100 --> 00:57:31,260 speaking this way with this 1406 00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:35,110 incompleteness theorems Husserl at times 1407 00:57:39,990 --> 00:57:37,210 kind of speaks this way although he's 1408 00:57:41,940 --> 00:57:40,000 kind of I would argue kind of 1409 00:57:44,670 --> 00:57:41,950 inconsistent on how he approaches it but 1410 00:57:47,550 --> 00:57:44,680 you have people who are and have been 1411 00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:47,560 kind of thinking in this this way but 1412 00:57:54,900 --> 00:57:49,210 it's just kind of so foreign to people 1413 00:57:57,210 --> 00:57:54,910 and it seems a little obtuse that it's 1414 00:57:58,950 --> 00:57:57,220 just one of the things that I try to to 1415 00:58:01,410 --> 00:57:58,960 get across to people and if I can ever 1416 00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:01,420 get people to to view it that way I 1417 00:58:05,970 --> 00:58:03,850 think you would you would kind of see a 1418 00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:05,980 Copernican revolution so to speak in the 1419 00:58:10,140 --> 00:58:08,290 way that we approach epistemology and 1420 00:58:12,300 --> 00:58:10,150 knowing things well 1421 00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:12,310 I'll throw another name on the pile 1422 00:58:18,210 --> 00:58:14,770 there that kind of I think would find a 1423 00:58:21,060 --> 00:58:18,220 lot of agreement with you and it's a guy 1424 00:58:23,730 --> 00:58:21,070 named dr. Raymond moody who's pretty 1425 00:58:25,380 --> 00:58:23,740 much established as being the person who 1426 00:58:27,390 --> 00:58:25,390 coined the term near-death experience 1427 00:58:30,090 --> 00:58:27,400 and wrote the famous book back in the 1428 00:58:33,030 --> 00:58:30,100 70s interesting guy he's not only in 1429 00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:33,040 medical MD but he also has a PhD in 1430 00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:35,890 philosophy so he's be a akin to you and 1431 00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:37,930 very very well schooled in Greek 1432 00:58:42,630 --> 00:58:40,090 philosophy as well and speaks Greek and 1433 00:58:43,590 --> 00:58:42,640 reads ancient Greek and he said for a 1434 00:58:46,260 --> 00:58:43,600 long time I've interviewed a couple 1435 00:58:47,310 --> 00:58:46,270 times he said he's kind of interesting 1436 00:58:49,890 --> 00:58:47,320 guy he kind of talks in riddles 1437 00:58:52,470 --> 00:58:49,900 sometimes but he says it's it's not 1438 00:58:54,930 --> 00:58:52,480 sensical and that we require it requires 1439 00:58:57,390 --> 00:58:54,940 a different system of logic to 1440 00:58:58,740 --> 00:58:57,400 understand the near-death experience 1441 00:59:02,700 --> 00:58:58,750 might even be and he calls it pre 1442 00:59:05,250 --> 00:59:02,710 scientific at the same time within the 1443 00:59:08,069 --> 00:59:05,260 existing paradigm that we have there's 1444 00:59:11,309 --> 00:59:08,079 been a tremendous amount of I think 1445 00:59:13,049 --> 00:59:11,319 important information about this 1446 00:59:16,130 --> 00:59:13,059 near-death experience that one 1447 00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:16,140 completely undermines the materialistic 1448 00:59:19,529 --> 00:59:18,130 understanding of consciousness because 1449 00:59:21,359 --> 00:59:19,539 as soon as we understand that 1450 00:59:23,069 --> 00:59:21,369 consciousness in some way that we don't 1451 00:59:26,069 --> 00:59:23,079 understand survives bodily death 1452 00:59:29,130 --> 00:59:26,079 we are completely blowing away the 1453 00:59:30,359 --> 00:59:29,140 existing paradigm but you know it's 1454 00:59:32,730 --> 00:59:30,369 interesting to talk about Raymond 1455 00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:32,740 because I just published interview today 1456 00:59:38,519 --> 00:59:35,650 with linguist Lisa smart who 1457 00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:38,529 collaborated with Raymond moody to do 1458 00:59:44,210 --> 00:59:41,650 this book on the final words or the 1459 00:59:46,710 --> 00:59:44,220 words that people speak near-death and 1460 00:59:49,140 --> 00:59:46,720 everyone has these stories in their 1461 00:59:53,069 --> 00:59:49,150 family but they're also backed up by 1462 00:59:55,650 --> 00:59:53,079 hospice work and of many people who've 1463 00:59:57,630 --> 00:59:55,660 seen this thing of the terminal lucidity 1464 00:59:59,700 --> 00:59:57,640 where someone who's in a coma they've 1465 01:00:01,410 --> 00:59:59,710 been in a coma for a year and right 1466 01:00:03,870 --> 01:00:01,420 before they die they sit up and they say 1467 01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:03,880 something either profound like they read 1468 01:00:08,099 --> 01:00:05,650 some poetry or they memorize something 1469 01:00:10,109 --> 01:00:08,109 if they recite some poetry out of memory 1470 01:00:11,789 --> 01:00:10,119 or they even say very pragmatic things 1471 01:00:13,799 --> 01:00:11,799 like the documents you're going to need 1472 01:00:15,329 --> 01:00:13,809 are in the third drawer on the left of 1473 01:00:18,930 --> 01:00:15,339 the bureau you know kind of think yeah 1474 01:00:23,039 --> 01:00:18,940 so all this is well established in terms 1475 01:00:25,950 --> 01:00:23,049 of in the way that we do science now we 1476 01:00:28,799 --> 01:00:25,960 have enough evidence to say there is 1477 01:00:31,230 --> 01:00:28,809 this other realm and I think we're at 1478 01:00:34,829 --> 01:00:31,240 the point where we have to start asking 1479 01:00:37,109 --> 01:00:34,839 questions about you know mapping that 1480 01:00:38,430 --> 01:00:37,119 and the typology of it and one thing I 1481 01:00:40,140 --> 01:00:38,440 want to kind of get back to is the 1482 01:00:41,970 --> 01:00:40,150 Orthodox Christian so you know that's 1483 01:00:44,279 --> 01:00:41,980 cool you're an Orthodox Christian that 1484 01:00:46,260 --> 01:00:44,289 was my childhood upbringing I was 1485 01:00:50,789 --> 01:00:46,270 brought up in Greek Orthodox Church but 1486 01:00:53,460 --> 01:00:50,799 the whole theological a kind of dogma 1487 01:00:54,930 --> 01:00:53,470 behind that I think we have to or this 1488 01:00:56,579 --> 01:00:54,940 is my proposition I want to hear what 1489 01:01:00,000 --> 01:00:56,589 you think I think we have to set that 1490 01:01:02,010 --> 01:01:00,010 aside and take you know the few pieces 1491 01:01:03,740 --> 01:01:02,020 of the jigsaw puzzle we have whether it 1492 01:01:06,500 --> 01:01:03,750 be the near-death experience 1493 01:01:10,010 --> 01:01:06,510 or you know Lisa's work with Raymond on 1494 01:01:13,220 --> 01:01:10,020 these final words or you know any number 1495 01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:13,230 of psychic medium-- research you know 1496 01:01:18,470 --> 01:01:16,530 some good scholarly I was quote Julie by 1497 01:01:20,300 --> 01:01:18,480 shell dr. Julie by shell who's you know 1498 01:01:23,570 --> 01:01:20,310 done that work as well as anyone has 1499 01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:23,580 passed muster in terms of the skeptics 1500 01:01:29,090 --> 01:01:25,770 and all that stuff there seems to be 1501 01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:29,100 this other realm and I think we need to 1502 01:01:33,890 --> 01:01:31,650 try and wrap our arms around it both the 1503 01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:33,900 good and the bad of it because we're 1504 01:01:39,530 --> 01:01:36,450 going to talk freely about you know 1505 01:01:45,050 --> 01:01:39,540 luciferianism and some of the malevolent 1506 01:01:47,690 --> 01:01:45,060 aspects of it what what what is the the 1507 01:01:49,550 --> 01:01:47,700 landscape there and how what how might 1508 01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:49,560 we understand it what should we rely on 1509 01:01:55,610 --> 01:01:53,130 and what should we not and what role can 1510 01:01:57,710 --> 01:01:55,620 some of this frontier science play in 1511 01:01:59,750 --> 01:01:57,720 trying to understand that have you given 1512 01:02:03,140 --> 01:01:59,760 much thought to that what I was getting 1513 01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:03,150 at was that we already have a pretty 1514 01:02:12,410 --> 01:02:08,850 extensive existential recording of these 1515 01:02:15,650 --> 01:02:12,420 kinds of experiences in and I'm not just 1516 01:02:17,810 --> 01:02:15,660 saying only the Orthodox tradition I 1517 01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:17,820 mean there's a bunch of traditions that 1518 01:02:26,330 --> 01:02:21,770 record these existential experiences of 1519 01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:26,340 this other realm and I and I all I'm 1520 01:02:32,030 --> 01:02:28,770 saying is that it's a presupposition of 1521 01:02:36,380 --> 01:02:32,040 scientism to assume that all of those 1522 01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:36,390 are made up or false or untrue and I'm 1523 01:02:39,770 --> 01:02:38,010 saying that well if you want evidence 1524 01:02:42,470 --> 01:02:39,780 for these kinds of things why would you 1525 01:02:44,180 --> 01:02:42,480 not look at I mean let's set aside you 1526 01:02:46,310 --> 01:02:44,190 know you have all this kind of stuff in 1527 01:02:48,500 --> 01:02:46,320 the feel of kaalia of the Orthodox 1528 01:02:51,950 --> 01:02:48,510 tradition you have seraphim rose writing 1529 01:02:54,380 --> 01:02:51,960 books about his experiences when he I 1530 01:02:57,550 --> 01:02:54,390 believe he used to meditate before he 1531 01:02:59,720 --> 01:02:57,560 had become Orthodox he was involved in 1532 01:03:02,270 --> 01:02:59,730 Taoist meditation or something to that 1533 01:03:04,250 --> 01:03:02,280 effect I can't recall exactly but he you 1534 01:03:06,950 --> 01:03:04,260 know he talks about his experiences in 1535 01:03:09,110 --> 01:03:06,960 the astral realm and what he thought it 1536 01:03:10,940 --> 01:03:09,120 was and his descriptions of it and then 1537 01:03:12,890 --> 01:03:10,950 he became Orthodox and then he you know 1538 01:03:14,740 --> 01:03:12,900 still had spiritual practices where he 1539 01:03:16,190 --> 01:03:14,750 felt like he was interacting with that 1540 01:03:17,750 --> 01:03:16,200 that realm 1541 01:03:19,099 --> 01:03:17,760 um 1542 01:03:22,370 --> 01:03:19,109 so in other words I'm saying that that's 1543 01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:22,380 a whole bevy of evidence there that's 1544 01:03:26,210 --> 01:03:23,970 just kind of tossed out or assumed to be 1545 01:03:28,580 --> 01:03:26,220 irrelevant again because we're all 1546 01:03:32,270 --> 01:03:28,590 dominated by assuming that there's going 1547 01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:32,280 to be that let me put it this way there 1548 01:03:38,290 --> 01:03:34,170 was a good philosopher who I like and 1549 01:03:41,060 --> 01:03:38,300 Greg Bahnson and he is to argue that 1550 01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:41,070 when we talk about things that are 1551 01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:45,090 immaterial you are not going to be able 1552 01:03:52,010 --> 01:03:49,850 to quote prove them in a material way 1553 01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:52,020 precisely because of the nature of what 1554 01:03:58,670 --> 01:03:54,810 they are so for example the skeptic 1555 01:04:01,280 --> 01:03:58,680 community when it says you know how are 1556 01:04:04,670 --> 01:04:01,290 you ever going to prove God you know 1557 01:04:06,830 --> 01:04:04,680 until I see God in a material fashion I 1558 01:04:08,300 --> 01:04:06,840 will not believe in that so this is a 1559 01:04:10,340 --> 01:04:08,310 kind of a common refrain that you hear 1560 01:04:12,859 --> 01:04:10,350 from these people and this is what dr. 1561 01:04:15,170 --> 01:04:12,869 Banton called the crackers in the in the 1562 01:04:18,460 --> 01:04:15,180 pantry fallacy right and said who at 1563 01:04:21,710 --> 01:04:18,470 this point was that if you if I go to 1564 01:04:23,450 --> 01:04:21,720 the pantry and I opened up and there's 1565 01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:23,460 you know to look to see if there's 1566 01:04:29,210 --> 01:04:26,250 crackers there if that would be a valid 1567 01:04:32,300 --> 01:04:29,220 way to determine whether there is that 1568 01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:32,310 such a thing as crackers but if we were 1569 01:04:37,220 --> 01:04:34,050 to talk about something that we are 1570 01:04:39,980 --> 01:04:37,230 saying is immaterial or conceptual in 1571 01:04:41,750 --> 01:04:39,990 nature then the way that we would go 1572 01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:41,760 about proving or knowing the existence 1573 01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:44,490 of that thing is not like going to the 1574 01:04:48,260 --> 01:04:46,050 pantry and opening up to see if there's 1575 01:04:49,700 --> 01:04:48,270 crackers there why because of the nature 1576 01:04:51,650 --> 01:04:49,710 of what it is we're saying that it's 1577 01:04:53,990 --> 01:04:51,660 immaterial so it's like it's like I'm 1578 01:04:57,290 --> 01:04:54,000 not I'm not quite so sure we stop there 1579 01:05:01,130 --> 01:04:57,300 because it allows people to kind of 1580 01:05:03,170 --> 01:05:01,140 introduce a whole bunch of ideas and put 1581 01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:03,180 them all on the same level I don't think 1582 01:05:07,490 --> 01:05:05,010 that's quite fair I mean like let's get 1583 01:05:09,290 --> 01:05:07,500 down to like a specific example one of 1584 01:05:11,900 --> 01:05:09,300 the questions I think it's fundamental 1585 01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:11,910 to everyone is is there a moral 1586 01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:14,250 imperative just consciousness that have 1587 01:05:17,450 --> 01:05:15,930 a hierarchical structure what we're 1588 01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:17,460 really talking about is God okay but 1589 01:05:20,870 --> 01:05:19,050 we're going to flour it up and make it 1590 01:05:23,750 --> 01:05:20,880 sound important but that is a 1591 01:05:26,390 --> 01:05:23,760 fundamental question is there a 1592 01:05:29,690 --> 01:05:26,400 hierarchy is there a good is there a 1593 01:05:31,310 --> 01:05:29,700 moral imperative I tell you I look at 1594 01:05:34,670 --> 01:05:31,320 the science of 1595 01:05:36,830 --> 01:05:34,680 this near-death experience of the after 1596 01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:36,840 death communication psychic medium-- 1597 01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:39,090 accounts all this it comes through loud 1598 01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:41,610 and clear that there does seem to be a 1599 01:05:47,180 --> 01:05:45,210 moral imperative so I think that's I 1600 01:05:51,410 --> 01:05:47,190 think that's important and I think it 1601 01:05:55,040 --> 01:05:51,420 also then yes it has to be incorporated 1602 01:05:56,480 --> 01:05:55,050 into our view of what those wisdom 1603 01:05:58,460 --> 01:05:56,490 traditions are because we have to dig 1604 01:06:01,870 --> 01:05:58,470 those up and say okay what can we sort 1605 01:06:04,550 --> 01:06:01,880 through and you know is Christianity uh 1606 01:06:06,590 --> 01:06:04,560 is the primacy of Christianity is that 1607 01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:06,600 valid how do we look at that how do we 1608 01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:09,090 analyze that and and does that conform 1609 01:06:14,150 --> 01:06:11,730 to what we're discovering here you know 1610 01:06:18,350 --> 01:06:14,160 I mean like the Dalai Lama famously has 1611 01:06:20,980 --> 01:06:18,360 said hey I'm open to science if science 1612 01:06:22,100 --> 01:06:20,990 proves anything that we're teaching is 1613 01:06:25,190 --> 01:06:22,110 incorrect 1614 01:06:27,110 --> 01:06:25,200 then it has to change and true to form I 1615 01:06:29,540 --> 01:06:27,120 think they have revised some of their 1616 01:06:33,080 --> 01:06:29,550 cosmology because it's no longer in line 1617 01:06:34,010 --> 01:06:33,090 well again I think I'm not being clear 1618 01:06:36,730 --> 01:06:34,020 on what I'm saying so I'm not 1619 01:06:39,320 --> 01:06:36,740 disagreeing with you that there are 1620 01:06:42,530 --> 01:06:39,330 scientific studies or evidences 1621 01:06:44,540 --> 01:06:42,540 regarding consciousness or after death 1622 01:06:47,060 --> 01:06:44,550 experience I mean I think like Rupert 1623 01:06:51,070 --> 01:06:47,070 Sheldrake has some good arguments to 1624 01:06:53,240 --> 01:06:51,080 show that there's kind of you know 1625 01:06:54,620 --> 01:06:53,250 morphogenetic learning that he talks 1626 01:06:58,310 --> 01:06:54,630 about with the Apes and this kind of 1627 01:07:01,070 --> 01:06:58,320 stuff but what I'm saying is that when 1628 01:07:04,160 --> 01:07:01,080 you think about people and how they 1629 01:07:07,190 --> 01:07:04,170 function it's not just a matter of 1630 01:07:08,750 --> 01:07:07,200 showing them facts and evidence because 1631 01:07:10,310 --> 01:07:08,760 that's not what's going to ultimately 1632 01:07:13,130 --> 01:07:10,320 convince them because people are going 1633 01:07:14,510 --> 01:07:13,140 to interpret I'm speaking more about 1634 01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:14,520 human nature that they're going to 1635 01:07:18,530 --> 01:07:15,930 interpret things the way that they want 1636 01:07:24,290 --> 01:07:18,540 to interpret them and so until we kind 1637 01:07:26,360 --> 01:07:24,300 of undergo a process of what in the 1638 01:07:28,910 --> 01:07:26,370 Greek tradition is called Metanoia which 1639 01:07:30,740 --> 01:07:28,920 is the like changing your mind right or 1640 01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:30,750 what you might call the awakening right 1641 01:07:35,690 --> 01:07:32,610 like you you have to be kind of awakened 1642 01:07:37,670 --> 01:07:35,700 out of just believing what you're told 1643 01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:37,680 and believing what mainstream media says 1644 01:07:44,660 --> 01:07:43,170 etc etc etc to be willing to move 1645 01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:44,670 towards objectivity 1646 01:07:48,829 --> 01:07:46,410 so I think we're kind of born in 1647 01:07:50,599 --> 01:07:48,839 egoistic state where we we believe 1648 01:07:51,829 --> 01:07:50,609 everything is relative and everything is 1649 01:07:53,509 --> 01:07:51,839 meaning me I'm the center of the 1650 01:07:55,009 --> 01:07:53,519 universe and until you come out break 1651 01:07:56,870 --> 01:07:55,019 from that and have some kind of 1652 01:07:59,539 --> 01:07:56,880 awakening experience where you realize 1653 01:08:01,759 --> 01:07:59,549 that there is objectivity there's 1654 01:08:05,599 --> 01:08:01,769 objective truth right then you're never 1655 01:08:07,609 --> 01:08:05,609 going to interpret the evidences that 1656 01:08:10,430 --> 01:08:07,619 are put before you for those kinds of 1657 01:08:14,779 --> 01:08:10,440 things accurately so you might have like 1658 01:08:16,340 --> 01:08:14,789 the the best killer study that shows the 1659 01:08:18,140 --> 01:08:16,350 you know consciousness after death and 1660 01:08:20,599 --> 01:08:18,150 if you go and show that to you know 1661 01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:20,609 hundred people out there most of them 1662 01:08:24,979 --> 01:08:22,170 are going to you know unless they're 1663 01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:24,989 already sort of receptive to that idea 1664 01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:26,370 like in other words let's say we go to 1665 01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:28,770 Michael Shermer is this audience and 1666 01:08:34,129 --> 01:08:32,130 he's giving a lecture on materialism and 1667 01:08:36,649 --> 01:08:34,139 there's no consciousness after death and 1668 01:08:39,499 --> 01:08:36,659 you have the study that shows it and you 1669 01:08:41,410 --> 01:08:39,509 have video evidence right every but most 1670 01:08:42,530 --> 01:08:41,420 of the people in his audience are 1671 01:08:44,090 --> 01:08:42,540 preconditioned 1672 01:08:45,349 --> 01:08:44,100 that they have a presupposition to 1673 01:08:47,209 --> 01:08:45,359 discount that they're going to 1674 01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:47,219 reinterpret what you're presenting in 1675 01:08:53,110 --> 01:08:50,130 some other way and so all I'm saying is 1676 01:08:56,209 --> 01:08:53,120 that there has to be a even larger 1677 01:08:58,430 --> 01:08:56,219 cultural shift in terms of how we 1678 01:09:01,160 --> 01:08:58,440 understand who we are and what logic is 1679 01:09:02,539 --> 01:09:01,170 and what constitutes a proof which i 1680 01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:02,549 think is a long time coming 1681 01:09:07,280 --> 01:09:04,770 before there's really going to be any 1682 01:09:09,079 --> 01:09:07,290 kind of like sea change like a big sway 1683 01:09:11,059 --> 01:09:09,089 sure but that might be true on a 1684 01:09:13,309 --> 01:09:11,069 societal cultural level but on the 1685 01:09:16,760 --> 01:09:13,319 personal level I think we know and see 1686 01:09:19,220 --> 01:09:16,770 from the popularity of books and and and 1687 01:09:21,169 --> 01:09:19,230 and the popularity of some of these 1688 01:09:23,709 --> 01:09:21,179 memes if you will I hate that term we're 1689 01:09:27,320 --> 01:09:23,719 stuck with it that people can undergo 1690 01:09:30,010 --> 01:09:27,330 personal spiritual transformations can 1691 01:09:33,019 --> 01:09:30,020 undergo personal just logical 1692 01:09:36,260 --> 01:09:33,029 transformations by looking at some of 1693 01:09:38,570 --> 01:09:36,270 this evidence some of this data so what 1694 01:09:41,959 --> 01:09:38,580 you know what about that art how does 1695 01:09:44,329 --> 01:09:41,969 that inform your your view and in 1696 01:09:46,519 --> 01:09:44,339 particular your Orthodox Christian view 1697 01:09:49,550 --> 01:09:46,529 because you know what if that doesn't 1698 01:09:51,919 --> 01:09:49,560 conform with some of the dogma and 1699 01:09:55,220 --> 01:09:51,929 doctrine of your religion what do you do 1700 01:09:58,580 --> 01:09:55,230 with that well that's a difficult 1701 01:10:00,379 --> 01:09:58,590 question I mean I think that most of us 1702 01:10:02,899 --> 01:10:00,389 I think we all have a worldview we all 1703 01:10:05,080 --> 01:10:02,909 have a wee odd presupposition paradigms 1704 01:10:10,479 --> 01:10:05,090 by which we interpret the world and so 1705 01:10:15,200 --> 01:10:10,489 again I think that my view is that we 1706 01:10:17,359 --> 01:10:15,210 were constituted as humans just to kind 1707 01:10:18,890 --> 01:10:17,369 of operate that way so even if we don't 1708 01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:18,900 think we have a philosophy or worldview 1709 01:10:28,070 --> 01:10:23,130 we do and so you kind of have to I think 1710 01:10:29,629 --> 01:10:28,080 lay the groundwork first and re reorient 1711 01:10:33,020 --> 01:10:29,639 yourself go through that process of 1712 01:10:35,570 --> 01:10:33,030 Metanoia changing the mind and and kind 1713 01:10:37,939 --> 01:10:35,580 of spiritual transformation to where 1714 01:10:41,629 --> 01:10:37,949 you're in a place that you can begin to 1715 01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:41,639 interpret the world correctly and I'm 1716 01:10:44,419 --> 01:10:43,050 not trying to be arrogant like oh I have 1717 01:10:46,129 --> 01:10:44,429 it all figured out I'm not saying that 1718 01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:46,139 I'm just saying that that's that's the 1719 01:10:52,010 --> 01:10:48,570 approach that I take so if you're asking 1720 01:10:55,129 --> 01:10:52,020 me is there scientific evidence that's 1721 01:10:58,040 --> 01:10:55,139 going to come along that will like be 1722 01:10:59,899 --> 01:10:58,050 the earth-shattering to my perspective I 1723 01:11:02,510 --> 01:10:59,909 don't think so because I've you know 1724 01:11:05,930 --> 01:11:02,520 I've been at this for a good while you 1725 01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:05,940 know I'm 20 years now of researching 1726 01:11:12,410 --> 01:11:08,010 this kind of stuff started when I was 18 1727 01:11:14,330 --> 01:11:12,420 or so and and I feel like I have a 1728 01:11:16,370 --> 01:11:14,340 decent grasp on how science works and 1729 01:11:19,310 --> 01:11:16,380 then but not just science but also the 1730 01:11:21,290 --> 01:11:19,320 levers of power and and who's funding 1731 01:11:24,109 --> 01:11:21,300 these studies and you know so if a study 1732 01:11:26,320 --> 01:11:24,119 comes out that says you know these come 1733 01:11:30,500 --> 01:11:26,330 out all the time you know that Oh 1734 01:11:32,600 --> 01:11:30,510 science proves that Jesus never existed 1735 01:11:35,689 --> 01:11:32,610 or something like this I mean I already 1736 01:11:38,750 --> 01:11:35,699 know the dearth there's a wealth of 1737 01:11:41,060 --> 01:11:38,760 evidence it's out there you know for 1738 01:11:42,770 --> 01:11:41,070 what I believe that something like 1739 01:11:45,050 --> 01:11:42,780 that's not going to like shake my 1740 01:11:47,479 --> 01:11:45,060 paradigms so I mean let's dip into 1741 01:11:49,550 --> 01:11:47,489 indulge me if you will for five or ten 1742 01:11:52,250 --> 01:11:49,560 minutes Joe at well he's been on the 1743 01:11:55,160 --> 01:11:52,260 show a couple times famous myth assist 1744 01:11:56,660 --> 01:11:55,170 uh I know you've kind of crossed swords 1745 01:11:59,180 --> 01:11:56,670 with them a couple times in interesting 1746 01:12:00,890 --> 01:11:59,190 ways interesting theory 1747 01:12:03,530 --> 01:12:00,900 I've so on our show we not only 1748 01:12:06,410 --> 01:12:03,540 interviewed Joe I talked to Richard 1749 01:12:09,320 --> 01:12:06,420 carrier biblical scholar outspoken 1750 01:12:11,690 --> 01:12:09,330 atheist and strangely enough you know 1751 01:12:15,410 --> 01:12:11,700 diametrically opposed to 1752 01:12:17,540 --> 01:12:15,420 Wells theory of the Roman Empire highly 1753 01:12:19,790 --> 01:12:17,550 influencing early Christianity also 1754 01:12:24,110 --> 01:12:19,800 talked a biblical scholar Robert price 1755 01:12:26,210 --> 01:12:24,120 often also talked to acharya SD diem 1756 01:12:29,180 --> 01:12:26,220 burdock kind of the person behind the 1757 01:12:31,250 --> 01:12:29,190 zeitgeist kind of idea and also talked 1758 01:12:34,520 --> 01:12:31,260 to biblical scholar joel watts who was 1759 01:12:36,170 --> 01:12:34,530 another outspoken critic of Atwell and i 1760 01:12:38,990 --> 01:12:36,180 have to tell you just in summary all 1761 01:12:42,860 --> 01:12:39,000 these people who were really against at 1762 01:12:46,220 --> 01:12:42,870 well and at wells basic thesis that it 1763 01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:46,230 is impossible to deny the parallelism 1764 01:12:55,640 --> 01:12:50,970 between Josephus and his book were the 1765 01:12:58,790 --> 01:12:55,650 jews famous really jewish but also roman 1766 01:13:01,070 --> 01:12:58,800 historian which is that are 1767 01:13:03,740 --> 01:13:01,080 well-established as one of the leading 1768 01:13:06,110 --> 01:13:03,750 historical historians of that period 1769 01:13:08,960 --> 01:13:06,120 it's it's just almost impossible to nigh 1770 01:13:11,810 --> 01:13:08,970 the parallelism between his book and 1771 01:13:13,790 --> 01:13:11,820 what appears in the book of mark and 1772 01:13:16,250 --> 01:13:13,800 other gospels and comes up there as 1773 01:13:18,950 --> 01:13:16,260 prophecy so i'm sure you've looked into 1774 01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:18,960 that what are your thoughts what I 1775 01:13:22,580 --> 01:13:20,730 focused on throughout most of my twenty 1776 01:13:28,400 --> 01:13:22,590 so I'm very familiar with all of this 1777 01:13:30,890 --> 01:13:28,410 and actually I did I met Joe at one of 1778 01:13:34,370 --> 01:13:30,900 the shows I was on I think last towards 1779 01:13:36,860 --> 01:13:34,380 the end of last year and we were cordial 1780 01:13:39,170 --> 01:13:36,870 and so we kind of I guess made thanks 1781 01:13:42,110 --> 01:13:39,180 polite and civil so we're not enemies or 1782 01:13:44,990 --> 01:13:42,120 anything but no I have obviously 1783 01:13:49,310 --> 01:13:45,000 significant disagreements with his 1784 01:13:52,880 --> 01:13:49,320 thesis and you know without trying to 1785 01:13:55,490 --> 01:13:52,890 dive too deep into that topic I mean 1786 01:13:58,340 --> 01:13:55,500 first of all what can be done is and 1787 01:13:59,690 --> 01:13:58,350 this is the reason why most people trip 1788 01:14:02,660 --> 01:13:59,700 up here is because I don't think they 1789 01:14:06,070 --> 01:14:02,670 have a very good grasp of like the Old 1790 01:14:08,390 --> 01:14:06,080 Testament in the the Torah and so forth 1791 01:14:10,160 --> 01:14:08,400 now I know that Joe at will makes 1792 01:14:12,470 --> 01:14:10,170 arguments from that from Isaiah and so 1793 01:14:15,080 --> 01:14:12,480 forth so I'm not I'm not negating that 1794 01:14:18,410 --> 01:14:15,090 out of hand but what I'm saying is that 1795 01:14:19,940 --> 01:14:18,420 when you understand the typology from 1796 01:14:22,600 --> 01:14:19,950 the biblical perspective right not the 1797 01:14:24,710 --> 01:14:22,610 typology that wants to kind of impose 1798 01:14:25,649 --> 01:14:24,720 something outside of the Canon of 1799 01:14:27,929 --> 01:14:25,659 Scripture on to 1800 01:14:30,179 --> 01:14:27,939 it what you get is that Jesus is 1801 01:14:32,310 --> 01:14:30,189 actually at the fulfillment of the 1802 01:14:34,109 --> 01:14:32,320 Jewish law so for example you have the 1803 01:14:35,850 --> 01:14:34,119 high priest and every year at the Day of 1804 01:14:38,370 --> 01:14:35,860 Atonement a high priest would go into 1805 01:14:40,379 --> 01:14:38,380 the sanctuary and he would sprinkle the 1806 01:14:42,449 --> 01:14:40,389 blood of the sacrifice onto the Ark of 1807 01:14:44,939 --> 01:14:42,459 the Covenant if you read the book of 1808 01:14:46,949 --> 01:14:44,949 Hebrews which again is written prior to 1809 01:14:49,979 --> 01:14:46,959 70 AD of the destruction of the temple 1810 01:14:52,859 --> 01:14:49,989 and by Titus the book of Hebrews really 1811 01:14:55,229 --> 01:14:52,869 explains a lot of the symbolism and how 1812 01:14:57,089 --> 01:14:55,239 it's fulfilled in Christ and so so in 1813 01:14:59,370 --> 01:14:57,099 Christ ascends into the third heavens 1814 01:15:02,580 --> 01:14:59,380 and he you know is supposed to be our 1815 01:15:05,779 --> 01:15:02,590 mediator in the flesh now before God the 1816 01:15:08,609 --> 01:15:05,789 third heavens is the fulfillment of the 1817 01:15:10,560 --> 01:15:08,619 out of the temple so the temple has 1818 01:15:12,089 --> 01:15:10,570 three stages it has an outer portico it 1819 01:15:13,649 --> 01:15:12,099 has a holy place and it has the Holy of 1820 01:15:17,159 --> 01:15:13,659 Holies which is the inner part where the 1821 01:15:19,560 --> 01:15:17,169 priests went and Paul presumably being 1822 01:15:21,299 --> 01:15:19,570 the writer of Hebrews says that you know 1823 01:15:24,929 --> 01:15:21,309 that's the fulfillment of Christ's 1824 01:15:26,939 --> 01:15:24,939 ascension is that his his procession 1825 01:15:29,489 --> 01:15:26,949 into these three stages of the heavens 1826 01:15:31,739 --> 01:15:29,499 right there's all kinds of things that 1827 01:15:35,189 --> 01:15:31,749 are fulfilled in what Jesus did he's the 1828 01:15:37,830 --> 01:15:35,199 Paschal Lamb right according to the book 1829 01:15:39,689 --> 01:15:37,840 of John and so there's all these types 1830 01:15:42,899 --> 01:15:39,699 that are fulfilled and who Jesus is 1831 01:15:45,719 --> 01:15:42,909 right so I don't think that what at will 1832 01:15:49,469 --> 01:15:45,729 argues makes any sense from the 1833 01:15:51,949 --> 01:15:49,479 intertextual interpretation of who the 1834 01:15:54,209 --> 01:15:51,959 Messiah is and what he would do and 1835 01:15:57,140 --> 01:15:54,219 again there's there's so many examples 1836 01:15:58,919 --> 01:15:57,150 of this that is very difficult to even 1837 01:16:01,620 --> 01:15:58,929 encapsulate like for example he of 1838 01:16:04,049 --> 01:16:01,630 Daniel to Daniel 7 Daniel 9 these all 1839 01:16:06,750 --> 01:16:04,059 talk about the timing in which this 1840 01:16:08,509 --> 01:16:06,760 Messiah would come the Messiah would 1841 01:16:12,629 --> 01:16:08,519 come and he would set up the Kingdom 1842 01:16:14,609 --> 01:16:12,639 under the the basically what is the 1843 01:16:16,409 --> 01:16:14,619 Roman Empire right and so all of this 1844 01:16:18,120 --> 01:16:16,419 happened and I don't think anybody 1845 01:16:22,169 --> 01:16:18,130 argues that the book of daniel was like 1846 01:16:23,399 --> 01:16:22,179 written by roman Flavian family or 1847 01:16:25,859 --> 01:16:23,409 something like that i mean that makes 1848 01:16:27,449 --> 01:16:25,869 absolutely no sense so what I'm getting 1849 01:16:29,159 --> 01:16:27,459 at is just that that you have all those 1850 01:16:31,109 --> 01:16:29,169 arguments and then so when we when we 1851 01:16:33,149 --> 01:16:31,119 want to read Josephus and I've read Wars 1852 01:16:35,819 --> 01:16:33,159 the Jews I know I've wrote papers and 1853 01:16:39,179 --> 01:16:35,829 undergrad about interpreting Matthew 24 1854 01:16:39,600 --> 01:16:39,189 and Luke 21 in light of what Josephus is 1855 01:16:41,820 --> 01:16:39,610 talking 1856 01:16:44,250 --> 01:16:41,830 about I don't really understand how 1857 01:16:46,379 --> 01:16:44,260 anyone makes this a Roman thing because 1858 01:16:48,689 --> 01:16:46,389 it's perfectly in line with what was 1859 01:16:51,270 --> 01:16:48,699 described in the Gospels which I think 1860 01:16:52,439 --> 01:16:51,280 were written pretty 70ad about the 1861 01:16:54,350 --> 01:16:52,449 destruction of the temple so the 1862 01:16:57,540 --> 01:16:54,360 destruction of the temple is the 1863 01:16:59,910 --> 01:16:57,550 culmination of the Old Testament era 1864 01:17:03,510 --> 01:16:59,920 it's exactly what Hebrew says it says 1865 01:17:06,060 --> 01:17:03,520 that the the end of those sacrifices 1866 01:17:08,399 --> 01:17:06,070 comes with the establishment of the 1867 01:17:11,070 --> 01:17:08,409 church the Orthodox Church now you say 1868 01:17:13,229 --> 01:17:11,080 well how it wait how do we know that it 1869 01:17:17,160 --> 01:17:13,239 would be the Orthodox Church well there 1870 01:17:19,919 --> 01:17:17,170 are I've got a 40 38 volume set of the 1871 01:17:22,979 --> 01:17:19,929 Church Fathers for the first 700 years 1872 01:17:25,620 --> 01:17:22,989 and there's a whole bevy of them from 1873 01:17:27,000 --> 01:17:25,630 Justin Martyr to try foe excuse me 1874 01:17:32,729 --> 01:17:27,010 Justin martyrs debate with tri fo - 1875 01:17:34,830 --> 01:17:32,739 you're an ass tutor tolian - Cyprian and 1876 01:17:37,260 --> 01:17:34,840 these are all Church Fathers for the 1877 01:17:39,330 --> 01:17:37,270 first 200 years and you can read through 1878 01:17:41,250 --> 01:17:39,340 their works and they're basically saying 1879 01:17:44,129 --> 01:17:41,260 the exact same thing that we say today 1880 01:17:46,770 --> 01:17:44,139 so it requires not just the mental 1881 01:17:51,330 --> 01:17:46,780 gymnastics of kind of creative 1882 01:17:53,669 --> 01:17:51,340 interpretation of a theory about an Oleg 1883 01:17:57,780 --> 01:17:53,679 ARCIC Roman family it actually becomes a 1884 01:18:00,629 --> 01:17:57,790 very torturous task that's made 1885 01:18:03,419 --> 01:18:00,639 nonsensical from Church Fathers that no 1886 01:18:05,399 --> 01:18:03,429 one doubts are dated in those centuries 1887 01:18:06,720 --> 01:18:05,409 the first second and then by the time 1888 01:18:09,209 --> 01:18:06,730 you get to the third century again 1889 01:18:12,149 --> 01:18:09,219 there's even more Church Fathers writing 1890 01:18:14,189 --> 01:18:12,159 about that about all the Orthodox 1891 01:18:16,859 --> 01:18:14,199 theology and dogmas that we hold to 1892 01:18:19,020 --> 01:18:16,869 still today so in other words we have 1893 01:18:21,120 --> 01:18:19,030 the same liturgy we have the same 1894 01:18:23,700 --> 01:18:21,130 doctrines it's all there 1895 01:18:28,680 --> 01:18:23,710 it's not something invented you know in 1896 01:18:30,709 --> 01:18:28,690 the time after you know some dynasty 1897 01:18:33,120 --> 01:18:30,719 that was made up it's not something 1898 01:18:35,729 --> 01:18:33,130 dated to the time of Constantine that 1899 01:18:38,129 --> 01:18:35,739 was made up and anybody who's aware of 1900 01:18:39,419 --> 01:18:38,139 those Church Fathers would know this you 1901 01:18:42,770 --> 01:18:39,429 know it's just not really that difficult 1902 01:18:44,939 --> 01:18:42,780 to figure out I don't know like I say we 1903 01:18:48,899 --> 01:18:44,949 investigated this pretty thoroughly and 1904 01:18:50,580 --> 01:18:48,909 I took on the critics of that well right 1905 01:18:52,210 --> 01:18:50,590 down the line and so I told you you know 1906 01:18:55,120 --> 01:18:52,220 Richard carrier 1907 01:18:57,610 --> 01:18:55,130 Robert price but also Christian critics 1908 01:19:00,310 --> 01:18:57,620 like biblical scholar Joel watt Suzanne 1909 01:19:03,370 --> 01:19:00,320 impressive impressive guy and you think 1910 01:19:04,690 --> 01:19:03,380 about me in that okay so I mean have you 1911 01:19:08,170 --> 01:19:04,700 have you read Irenaeus have you read 1912 01:19:10,900 --> 01:19:08,180 against Harrison's I have not okay have 1913 01:19:13,810 --> 01:19:10,910 you read any of Cyprian not like 1914 01:19:16,240 --> 01:19:13,820 in-depth but I'll tell you the part that 1915 01:19:20,260 --> 01:19:16,250 I find compelling and and one is that 1916 01:19:22,990 --> 01:19:20,270 all of these folks agree that at the end 1917 01:19:25,900 --> 01:19:23,000 of the day that while Atwell has taken 1918 01:19:28,960 --> 01:19:25,910 things kind of absurdly far in terms of 1919 01:19:31,510 --> 01:19:28,970 the grand conspiracy that was the Roman 1920 01:19:35,550 --> 01:19:31,520 creation of the entire Christian 1921 01:19:39,430 --> 01:19:35,560 tradition that his point is pretty 1922 01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:39,440 undeniable in terms of two things one is 1923 01:19:44,850 --> 01:19:41,570 that most Christians don't understand 1924 01:19:48,760 --> 01:19:44,860 who Josephus was I mean Josephus was a 1925 01:19:51,340 --> 01:19:48,770 Jewish general who was co-opted by the 1926 01:19:53,530 --> 01:19:51,350 Romans when they landed in Galilee and 1927 01:19:56,920 --> 01:19:53,540 he said okay I'll join up with you guys 1928 01:19:59,080 --> 01:19:56,930 rather than face annihilation face death 1929 01:20:01,450 --> 01:19:59,090 as many of his men did and then his 1930 01:20:03,700 --> 01:20:01,460 account in the war of the Jews is backed 1931 01:20:06,640 --> 01:20:03,710 up by archaeological evidence right so 1932 01:20:08,380 --> 01:20:06,650 we can go back and say gee when he says 1933 01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:08,390 the walls were this thick and we dig it 1934 01:20:12,310 --> 01:20:10,970 up and there they are I maybe you didn't 1935 01:20:12,970 --> 01:20:12,320 understand what I was saying I know I 1936 01:20:13,990 --> 01:20:12,980 get it 1937 01:20:17,380 --> 01:20:14,000 I was getting to what you were saying 1938 01:20:18,610 --> 01:20:17,390 because the the the point being that for 1939 01:20:21,100 --> 01:20:18,620 hundreds of years 1940 01:20:24,940 --> 01:20:21,110 biblical scholars have acknowledged this 1941 01:20:27,430 --> 01:20:24,950 parallel between the book war the Jews 1942 01:20:29,410 --> 01:20:27,440 and what's written in the Gospels and 1943 01:20:31,300 --> 01:20:29,420 there's two ways to kind of harmonize 1944 01:20:33,610 --> 01:20:31,310 that one is you can say kind of what 1945 01:20:37,480 --> 01:20:33,620 you're alluding to is well yeah well you 1946 01:20:39,520 --> 01:20:37,490 know that's just the miracle of prophecy 1947 01:20:42,940 --> 01:20:39,530 and all that that it happens to conform 1948 01:20:44,620 --> 01:20:42,950 with this book but when we look at it 1949 01:20:48,310 --> 01:20:44,630 from a more human standpoint I think 1950 01:20:50,440 --> 01:20:48,320 it's a lot easier to understand in terms 1951 01:20:52,810 --> 01:20:50,450 of just some kind of basic things I mean 1952 01:20:54,550 --> 01:20:52,820 this doesn't undermine the notion of 1953 01:20:55,690 --> 01:20:54,560 Jesus one that maybe Jesus was a 1954 01:20:57,850 --> 01:20:55,700 historical figure 1955 01:20:59,680 --> 01:20:57,860 certainly that Christ consciousness is 1956 01:21:04,420 --> 01:20:59,690 real I'm not touching any of that I'm 1957 01:21:06,040 --> 01:21:04,430 just focusing on this small part of the 1958 01:21:10,089 --> 01:21:06,050 idea that 1959 01:21:12,160 --> 01:21:10,099 the Bible needs to be understood the way 1960 01:21:15,339 --> 01:21:12,170 that it's always been presented to us I 1961 01:21:17,280 --> 01:21:15,349 think is undermined by what Atwell has 1962 01:21:19,750 --> 01:21:17,290 shown in terms of the parallels between 1963 01:21:22,479 --> 01:21:19,760 Josephus's work and what's in the gospel 1964 01:21:23,979 --> 01:21:22,489 and there's just a cadre of building 1965 01:21:26,290 --> 01:21:23,989 scholars that agree there's something 1966 01:21:30,760 --> 01:21:26,300 going on there you can go back to st. 1967 01:21:33,970 --> 01:21:30,770 John Chrysostom in the 400s talking 1968 01:21:35,680 --> 01:21:33,980 about Josephus as parallels to to Jesus 1969 01:21:37,959 --> 01:21:35,690 so this is not a new idea this is not 1970 01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:37,969 something that right this is called 1971 01:21:40,149 --> 01:21:38,690 preterism 1972 01:21:42,580 --> 01:21:40,159 and there have been theologians who've 1973 01:21:45,459 --> 01:21:42,590 been writing about pro tourism for 1500 1974 01:21:45,910 --> 01:21:45,469 years or more so that this is not a new 1975 01:21:48,720 --> 01:21:45,920 idea 1976 01:21:52,689 --> 01:21:48,730 people have been well aware of Josephus 1977 01:21:54,490 --> 01:21:52,699 commentary on what happened in 70 AD now 1978 01:21:55,839 --> 01:21:54,500 I understand what you're saying I 1979 01:21:59,589 --> 01:21:55,849 understand that well maybe we need to 1980 01:22:00,910 --> 01:21:59,599 set aside the supernatural idea and look 1981 01:22:05,020 --> 01:22:00,920 at the possibility that this was a 1982 01:22:06,970 --> 01:22:05,030 concocted mythology that was not really 1983 01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:06,980 just just so you understand me not I'm 1984 01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:10,010 not saying all of that because I'm 1985 01:22:16,000 --> 01:22:12,770 saying what seems to emerge is that it's 1986 01:22:18,370 --> 01:22:16,010 this very human collection that maybe 1987 01:22:20,470 --> 01:22:18,380 there is a very supernatural part of it 1988 01:22:24,069 --> 01:22:20,480 a divine part of it but then there's 1989 01:22:26,169 --> 01:22:24,079 also a very understood from a PSYOP 1990 01:22:27,970 --> 01:22:26,179 control standpoint as well that's what 1991 01:22:30,939 --> 01:22:27,980 I'm saying that both have to be it's an 1992 01:22:33,580 --> 01:22:30,949 end or not an either/or I know but I'm 1993 01:22:35,919 --> 01:22:33,590 saying that just even like a basic 1994 01:22:40,149 --> 01:22:35,929 knowledge of how the biblical canon came 1995 01:22:43,060 --> 01:22:40,159 to be from scholars across traditions 1996 01:22:45,189 --> 01:22:43,070 that are not did don't have an agenda so 1997 01:22:47,200 --> 01:22:45,199 you can look at Protestant scholars even 1998 01:22:49,990 --> 01:22:47,210 that talk about how the Canon came into 1999 01:22:52,750 --> 01:22:50,000 formation like F F Bruce renowned New 2000 01:22:54,490 --> 01:22:52,760 Testament scholar for decades 2001 01:22:56,250 --> 01:22:54,500 you know his books on the formation of 2002 01:22:58,870 --> 01:22:56,260 the Canon Lee McDonald who's a liberal 2003 01:23:01,089 --> 01:22:58,880 his books on the formation of the Canon 2004 01:23:03,899 --> 01:23:01,099 all of this is completely contrary to to 2005 01:23:07,589 --> 01:23:03,909 this thesis okay so we're not looking at 2006 01:23:11,740 --> 01:23:07,599 something that is just a thesis about 2007 01:23:13,330 --> 01:23:11,750 how or who Jesus might have been in some 2008 01:23:15,640 --> 01:23:13,340 seminal form and then how it wasn't 2009 01:23:18,790 --> 01:23:15,650 corrupted it's just completely contrary 2010 01:23:19,360 --> 01:23:18,800 to like public scholarship about what 2011 01:23:21,430 --> 01:23:19,370 happened in the 2012 01:23:23,830 --> 01:23:21,440 first four or five centuries that that 2013 01:23:25,720 --> 01:23:23,840 brought the biblical canon together and 2014 01:23:27,700 --> 01:23:25,730 you can again you can read those two 2015 01:23:28,900 --> 01:23:27,710 books just for example they just 2016 01:23:30,940 --> 01:23:28,910 completely blow all this out of the 2017 01:23:32,290 --> 01:23:30,950 water it's just it's nonsensical and 2018 01:23:34,120 --> 01:23:32,300 there's plenty of other works that can 2019 01:23:36,760 --> 01:23:34,130 recommend to their biblical apocalyptic 2020 01:23:38,830 --> 01:23:36,770 spy Milton Terry days of vengeance by 2021 01:23:42,040 --> 01:23:38,840 David Chilton the best thing on the 2022 01:23:44,140 --> 01:23:42,050 dating of the apocalypse in those texts 2023 01:23:47,320 --> 01:23:44,150 is a Ken Gentry's book before Jerusalem 2024 01:23:50,140 --> 01:23:47,330 fell all of which are like pH D th the 2025 01:23:51,970 --> 01:23:50,150 thesis level books that I think make a 2026 01:23:54,280 --> 01:23:51,980 lot better sense of what we're talking 2027 01:23:58,210 --> 01:23:54,290 about here in and again I mean you can't 2028 01:23:59,980 --> 01:23:58,220 understand these things outside of you 2029 01:24:01,990 --> 01:23:59,990 know doing your homework outside of 2030 01:24:04,750 --> 01:24:02,000 reading these Church Fathers that I 2031 01:24:07,540 --> 01:24:04,760 talked about who who I think make a much 2032 01:24:07,990 --> 01:24:07,550 better coherent case for you know what I 2033 01:24:10,830 --> 01:24:08,000 believe 2034 01:24:13,060 --> 01:24:10,840 then then trying to I mean now again I 2035 01:24:16,000 --> 01:24:13,070 understand what's being said I know 2036 01:24:17,380 --> 01:24:16,010 Joe's arguments I know the so what do 2037 01:24:20,320 --> 01:24:17,390 you think what do you think is being 2038 01:24:22,480 --> 01:24:20,330 said specifically and there in them this 2039 01:24:24,340 --> 01:24:22,490 is inside baseball and I appreciate you 2040 01:24:26,740 --> 01:24:24,350 indulging me most the audience will 2041 01:24:29,440 --> 01:24:26,750 probably be tuning out now but that's 2042 01:24:31,300 --> 01:24:29,450 okay what do you think is being said in 2043 01:24:33,250 --> 01:24:31,310 as narrow focus as possible because I 2044 01:24:37,030 --> 01:24:33,260 think what's being said is that the 2045 01:24:38,380 --> 01:24:37,040 writers of Mark had access to the war of 2046 01:24:41,260 --> 01:24:38,390 the Judas that's what I think's being 2047 01:24:43,810 --> 01:24:41,270 said okay right but see the the thing is 2048 01:24:48,340 --> 01:24:43,820 is that the we don't actually know the 2049 01:24:50,970 --> 01:24:48,350 dating of mark we don't know the exact 2050 01:24:56,890 --> 01:24:50,980 date of when the Gospels were compiled 2051 01:24:58,960 --> 01:24:56,900 so yeah I mean the liberal scholarship 2052 01:25:02,020 --> 01:24:58,970 itself in the modern world which is what 2053 01:25:03,910 --> 01:25:02,030 a lot of this the a lot of the theories 2054 01:25:07,510 --> 01:25:03,920 about who the Gospel writers were is 2055 01:25:10,120 --> 01:25:07,520 based on like the thesis of Julius 2056 01:25:12,550 --> 01:25:10,130 Wellhausen of the JEP D the documentary 2057 01:25:14,530 --> 01:25:12,560 hypothesis was funny about the 2058 01:25:18,390 --> 01:25:14,540 documentary hypothesis is it as much 2059 01:25:21,250 --> 01:25:18,400 like scientism because the modern day 2060 01:25:24,280 --> 01:25:21,260 documentary hypothesis no longer 2061 01:25:24,880 --> 01:25:24,290 believed the hypotheses of julius 2062 01:25:27,820 --> 01:25:24,890 wellhausen 2063 01:25:30,670 --> 01:25:27,830 so it's it's just as shifting and just 2064 01:25:31,600 --> 01:25:30,680 as a creative endeavor of scholars 2065 01:25:32,930 --> 01:25:31,610 trying to make a name for themselves 2066 01:25:35,000 --> 01:25:32,940 that you can go 2067 01:25:37,459 --> 01:25:35,010 gaile right now yields a YouTube channel 2068 01:25:38,780 --> 01:25:37,469 there's a woman professor antrum her 2069 01:25:41,840 --> 01:25:38,790 name off top my habit she gives lectures 2070 01:25:44,050 --> 01:25:41,850 on the documentary hypothesis in the New 2071 01:25:46,640 --> 01:25:44,060 Testament and on Julius Wellhausen 2072 01:25:48,320 --> 01:25:46,650 and she talks about how that's all been 2073 01:25:51,410 --> 01:25:48,330 discarded we no longer believe that Q 2074 01:25:52,850 --> 01:25:51,420 the idea that there's Q this modern-day 2075 01:25:54,140 --> 01:25:52,860 scholars don't believe that anymore now 2076 01:25:57,050 --> 01:25:54,150 I don't really care what the modern-day 2077 01:25:59,540 --> 01:25:57,060 scholars are because I'm not I I have a 2078 01:26:02,380 --> 01:25:59,550 much better grounding in my worldview 2079 01:26:05,479 --> 01:26:02,390 and in my system my belief system then - 2080 01:26:07,100 --> 01:26:05,489 - really what I'm not saying the 2081 01:26:08,750 --> 01:26:07,110 academia doesn't matter I mean I can 2082 01:26:10,100 --> 01:26:08,760 give you you know twenty books off the 2083 01:26:12,350 --> 01:26:10,110 top my head right now that would deal 2084 01:26:15,770 --> 01:26:12,360 with these topics in a coherent fashion 2085 01:26:17,150 --> 01:26:15,780 but I'm just saying that the that they 2086 01:26:19,220 --> 01:26:17,160 don't even believe what they believed 2087 01:26:21,050 --> 01:26:19,230 you know a hundred years ago so I don't 2088 01:26:23,630 --> 01:26:21,060 really care what you know the latest 2089 01:26:26,990 --> 01:26:23,640 theories of Q are and this and so for 2090 01:26:28,459 --> 01:26:27,000 and that I think plays into a lot of it 2091 01:26:32,150 --> 01:26:28,469 would have to play into a lot of what's 2092 01:26:33,830 --> 01:26:32,160 being argued here that oh well since the 2093 01:26:37,790 --> 01:26:33,840 assumption here is that Mark's Gospel 2094 01:26:39,350 --> 01:26:37,800 was early and he therefore had to have 2095 01:26:42,350 --> 01:26:39,360 whoever put it together how to have 2096 01:26:43,550 --> 01:26:42,360 access to the wards of the Jews and so 2097 01:26:45,890 --> 01:26:43,560 again it's just based on the 2098 01:26:48,040 --> 01:26:45,900 presupposition the anti anti 2099 01:26:51,290 --> 01:26:48,050 supernaturals presupposition is the 2100 01:26:53,600 --> 01:26:51,300 basis for that argument now you may want 2101 01:26:56,150 --> 01:26:53,610 to add in supernaturalism later and say 2102 01:26:57,860 --> 01:26:56,160 that there's some other kind of you know 2103 01:26:59,330 --> 01:26:57,870 the Jesus quest vibe argument but the 2104 01:27:01,300 --> 01:26:59,340 funny thing is that all the Jesus quest 2105 01:27:04,400 --> 01:27:01,310 stuff is funded by the UN is funded by 2106 01:27:07,160 --> 01:27:04,410 you know Elaine Pagels has a UN backing 2107 01:27:10,430 --> 01:27:07,170 so all of her stuff is in my view bogus 2108 01:27:12,560 --> 01:27:10,440 Bart Ehrman stuff is all as a political 2109 01:27:14,150 --> 01:27:12,570 agenda as well and that's why you see 2110 01:27:16,790 --> 01:27:14,160 these people arguing for feminism and 2111 01:27:17,570 --> 01:27:16,800 you know feminist theology all's 2112 01:27:19,400 --> 01:27:17,580 nonsense 2113 01:27:21,350 --> 01:27:19,410 well at least part of academia he's not 2114 01:27:23,180 --> 01:27:21,360 going to be separate from all of that 2115 01:27:25,220 --> 01:27:23,190 stuff correct I guess what it gets down 2116 01:27:27,290 --> 01:27:25,230 to let's try and tie it back to Jays 2117 01:27:29,750 --> 01:27:27,300 analysis I mean because someone who 2118 01:27:31,100 --> 01:27:29,760 listens to your to your shows and gets 2119 01:27:34,370 --> 01:27:31,110 it and there's a ton of stuff we haven't 2120 01:27:35,689 --> 01:27:34,380 talked about the whole occulted so what 2121 01:27:37,310 --> 01:27:35,699 I want to make one more point though 2122 01:27:39,920 --> 01:27:37,320 yes--it's go ahead this is very crucial 2123 01:27:42,110 --> 01:27:39,930 to to Atwells thing the preterist 2124 01:27:45,709 --> 01:27:42,120 argument which is the idea that most of 2125 01:27:46,669 --> 01:27:45,719 what you're seeing in the Matthew 24 the 2126 01:27:48,949 --> 01:27:46,679 Olivet discourse and 2127 01:27:50,569 --> 01:27:48,959 twenty-one about the last days and even 2128 01:27:52,219 --> 01:27:50,579 the book of the apocalypse which I 2129 01:27:55,850 --> 01:27:52,229 referenced today's Avengers by David 2130 01:27:59,629 --> 01:27:55,860 Chilton those books don't stand alone 2131 01:28:01,910 --> 01:27:59,639 a lot of what's in the apocalypse is out 2132 01:28:03,350 --> 01:28:01,920 of texts from Isaiah and how the text 2133 01:28:07,790 --> 01:28:03,360 from Ezekiel and they're they're out of 2134 01:28:10,520 --> 01:28:07,800 text from Daniel Matthew 24 and Luke 21 2135 01:28:11,629 --> 01:28:10,530 reference Daniel 7 many times Daniel 7 2136 01:28:15,199 --> 01:28:11,639 is a prediction of when the Messiah 2137 01:28:17,169 --> 01:28:15,209 would come and it in into chapters 11 it 2138 01:28:21,169 --> 01:28:17,179 references the abomination of desolation 2139 01:28:23,270 --> 01:28:21,179 Jesus quotes this in Luke 17 so what I'm 2140 01:28:25,669 --> 01:28:23,280 saying is that you it's not like you can 2141 01:28:27,649 --> 01:28:25,679 build this thesis just on these New 2142 01:28:30,949 --> 01:28:27,659 Testament chapters and say that it well 2143 01:28:33,379 --> 01:28:30,959 coincides with Josephus because nobody 2144 01:28:36,080 --> 01:28:33,389 will argue that Josephus was around the 2145 01:28:38,600 --> 01:28:36,090 days of Daniel Josephus was not around 2146 01:28:40,939 --> 01:28:38,610 the days of Isaiah when you have 90 of 2147 01:28:43,040 --> 01:28:40,949 my sanity's yeah many of the same 2148 01:28:45,560 --> 01:28:43,050 arguments are made and again that's 2149 01:28:47,569 --> 01:28:45,570 because 70 AD was the fulfillment of all 2150 01:28:50,239 --> 01:28:47,579 of those prophecies what is Luke say 2151 01:28:51,410 --> 01:28:50,249 Luke's Luke says in his gospel these are 2152 01:28:52,580 --> 01:28:51,420 the days of vengeance in which all 2153 01:28:54,799 --> 01:28:52,590 things written the prophets must be 2154 01:28:56,870 --> 01:28:54,809 fulfilled and I think that that's what 2155 01:28:58,399 --> 01:28:56,880 70 AD was that's what the book of the 2156 01:29:02,120 --> 01:28:58,409 apocalypse is talking about spark it's 2157 01:29:03,770 --> 01:29:02,130 talking about the end of that era you 2158 01:29:06,500 --> 01:29:03,780 know that's why John says these things 2159 01:29:09,799 --> 01:29:06,510 are soon to come to pass it the whole 2160 01:29:12,620 --> 01:29:09,809 period of the mosaic the Adam Adamic to 2161 01:29:14,750 --> 01:29:12,630 the mosaic to the Davidic that's all 2162 01:29:17,569 --> 01:29:14,760 fulfilled in this character of Christ 2163 01:29:20,359 --> 01:29:17,579 and that's why 70 idea was so important 2164 01:29:22,219 --> 01:29:20,369 I get that and and that's the the 2165 01:29:24,949 --> 01:29:22,229 Christian explanation for it and that's 2166 01:29:27,709 --> 01:29:24,959 not being derogatory but it's that you 2167 01:29:29,870 --> 01:29:27,719 know again the parallels are pretty 2168 01:29:32,209 --> 01:29:29,880 undeniable it's a you can line them up 2169 01:29:35,270 --> 01:29:32,219 point by point and it appears to be 2170 01:29:37,009 --> 01:29:35,280 following the exact sequence of Josephus 2171 01:29:40,219 --> 01:29:37,019 and then you're saying well from a 2172 01:29:42,049 --> 01:29:40,229 broader kind of spiritual in ways that 2173 01:29:45,319 --> 01:29:42,059 we don't understand perspective there's 2174 01:29:47,239 --> 01:29:45,329 other prophecies that would tie into it 2175 01:29:49,790 --> 01:29:47,249 that makes it is the argument if the 2176 01:29:52,339 --> 01:29:49,800 argument is of the Gospel writers were 2177 01:29:54,649 --> 01:29:52,349 writing from Josephus I'm saying that 2178 01:29:56,660 --> 01:29:54,659 it's big it's a bigger problem because 2179 01:29:57,979 --> 01:29:56,670 what the Gospel writers are not just 2180 01:29:59,719 --> 01:29:57,989 quoting Josephus a lot of these things 2181 01:30:00,500 --> 01:29:59,729 come out of the Old Testament even 2182 01:30:06,259 --> 01:30:00,510 Josephus 2183 01:30:09,890 --> 01:30:06,269 of Jerusalem seems in some way to kind 2184 01:30:11,629 --> 01:30:09,900 of be a covenant 'l upon israel now he 2185 01:30:12,560 --> 01:30:11,639 obviously doesn't believe in jesus he 2186 01:30:14,660 --> 01:30:12,570 doesn't think that it was for the 2187 01:30:16,009 --> 01:30:14,670 rejection on messiah what i'm saying is 2188 01:30:19,390 --> 01:30:16,019 that if you read the book of deuteronomy 2189 01:30:21,919 --> 01:30:19,400 well he thinks titus is the messiah I 2190 01:30:24,259 --> 01:30:21,929 think that's what Josephus believes I 2191 01:30:26,060 --> 01:30:24,269 mean that's his whole if that's his 2192 01:30:28,459 --> 01:30:26,070 whole conversion right he's in the cave 2193 01:30:30,169 --> 01:30:28,469 and he tells everybody okay we all have 2194 01:30:32,180 --> 01:30:30,179 to commit suicide and then he has 2195 01:30:34,520 --> 01:30:32,190 incredible relevation because hey wait a 2196 01:30:36,799 --> 01:30:34,530 minute we were all wrong our whole 2197 01:30:39,049 --> 01:30:36,809 Judaic tradition had it wrong the 2198 01:30:40,910 --> 01:30:39,059 Messiah is here it's Caesar Caesar is 2199 01:30:43,129 --> 01:30:40,920 the messiah let's go and that's what he 2200 01:30:45,140 --> 01:30:43,139 that's what he he lives and writes for 2201 01:30:48,680 --> 01:30:45,150 the rest of his life so I mean that's 2202 01:30:51,140 --> 01:30:48,690 Josie again a real quick way to dispel 2203 01:30:54,200 --> 01:30:51,150 this is that there there are 300 years 2204 01:30:56,419 --> 01:30:54,210 of persecution of Christianity 2205 01:30:59,000 --> 01:30:56,429 throughout the Roman Empire so the idea 2206 01:31:01,220 --> 01:30:59,010 that this is what just I mean that's 2207 01:31:02,689 --> 01:31:01,230 that's not the controversial this is 2208 01:31:04,459 --> 01:31:02,699 what Josephus wrote I don't I don't 2209 01:31:05,990 --> 01:31:04,469 recall Josephus saying that I mean 2210 01:31:10,580 --> 01:31:06,000 that's probably a theory about the 2211 01:31:13,009 --> 01:31:10,590 Qumran community and the dusty scroll no 2212 01:31:15,410 --> 01:31:13,019 I mean that's the well um I'm pretty 2213 01:31:17,240 --> 01:31:15,420 sure that's what Josephus writes in his 2214 01:31:19,160 --> 01:31:17,250 twenty thousand well I mean I wrote a 2215 01:31:23,149 --> 01:31:19,170 similar about this a grad level paper 2216 01:31:25,370 --> 01:31:23,159 ten years ago dealing with Wars the Jews 2217 01:31:26,240 --> 01:31:25,380 and Matthew 24 and Luke 21 so I'm not 2218 01:31:30,229 --> 01:31:26,250 trying to be arrogant but I'm just 2219 01:31:32,120 --> 01:31:30,239 saying again if you if you haven't read 2220 01:31:34,129 --> 01:31:32,130 you know the patristic literature from 2221 01:31:36,680 --> 01:31:34,139 the first three centuries and you 2222 01:31:37,939 --> 01:31:36,690 haven't looked into you know the fact 2223 01:31:39,680 --> 01:31:37,949 that the church was persecuted for the 2224 01:31:41,629 --> 01:31:39,690 first 300 years by the Roman Empire I 2225 01:31:45,169 --> 01:31:41,639 mean this thesis is really kind of 2226 01:31:47,089 --> 01:31:45,179 ridiculous well yeah you know I would 2227 01:31:50,000 --> 01:31:47,099 say when people say you haven't read it 2228 01:31:51,379 --> 01:31:50,010 it's a familiarity with it but you know 2229 01:31:53,600 --> 01:31:51,389 we can all read things and get to things 2230 01:31:56,270 --> 01:31:53,610 but I get your point here's the way I 2231 01:31:59,629 --> 01:31:56,280 think it ties back to the question that 2232 01:32:01,700 --> 01:31:59,639 really sent this off is that I think 2233 01:32:04,459 --> 01:32:01,710 what we're struggling with in terms of 2234 01:32:07,069 --> 01:32:04,469 trying to understand what's going on 2235 01:32:08,870 --> 01:32:07,079 which is in a very broad sense what 2236 01:32:10,790 --> 01:32:08,880 you're trying to do on Jays analysis 2237 01:32:13,490 --> 01:32:10,800 what you're trying to do with esoteric 2238 01:32:17,900 --> 01:32:13,500 Hollywood and saying is there some 2239 01:32:21,290 --> 01:32:17,910 occulted religious or occulted 2240 01:32:23,960 --> 01:32:21,300 spirituality be it good or bad that lies 2241 01:32:26,810 --> 01:32:23,970 behind all this I think it's important 2242 01:32:29,300 --> 01:32:26,820 to know what someone's starting point is 2243 01:32:32,240 --> 01:32:29,310 you know and and how that starting point 2244 01:32:34,070 --> 01:32:32,250 has been developed and I think you're 2245 01:32:37,040 --> 01:32:34,080 saying over and over again that you're 2246 01:32:41,450 --> 01:32:37,050 very comfortable with your Orthodox 2247 01:32:44,840 --> 01:32:41,460 Christian historical Jesus being your 2248 01:32:48,400 --> 01:32:44,850 map of that extended consciousness realm 2249 01:32:50,810 --> 01:32:48,410 and I'm saying gee I keep stumbling into 2250 01:32:53,060 --> 01:32:50,820 science and well as well as other 2251 01:32:55,070 --> 01:32:53,070 evidence that calls that into question 2252 01:32:57,230 --> 01:32:55,080 I'll leave you with one more and then we 2253 01:32:59,600 --> 01:32:57,240 that kind of gets us back on I would be 2254 01:33:01,220 --> 01:32:59,610 glad to debate any of these topics you 2255 01:33:03,230 --> 01:33:01,230 know I've done public debates with Adam 2256 01:33:05,870 --> 01:33:03,240 Koch ash and you know prominent people 2257 01:33:07,250 --> 01:33:05,880 so I want to have a debate or if anybody 2258 01:33:07,640 --> 01:33:07,260 else wants to debate it I'm that's fine 2259 01:33:09,920 --> 01:33:07,650 with me 2260 01:33:11,000 --> 01:33:09,930 hey man I think that's great and I 2261 01:33:12,200 --> 01:33:11,010 thought well I think that's kind of what 2262 01:33:14,960 --> 01:33:12,210 we're doing here I mean we're fleshing 2263 01:33:17,960 --> 01:33:14,970 out these issues I agree with so much I 2264 01:33:20,270 --> 01:33:17,970 mean III brought a grooming look look I 2265 01:33:23,300 --> 01:33:20,280 want to stress that this whole thing 2266 01:33:26,330 --> 01:33:23,310 hinges on I'm assuming you know the 2267 01:33:27,440 --> 01:33:26,340 first three centuries okay I mean maybe 2268 01:33:30,470 --> 01:33:27,450 there's some other argument I'm not 2269 01:33:32,000 --> 01:33:30,480 aware of but again all you have to do is 2270 01:33:33,230 --> 01:33:32,010 read these Church Fathers from the first 2271 01:33:35,240 --> 01:33:33,240 three centuries who are placed 2272 01:33:38,240 --> 01:33:35,250 throughout the Roman Empire who are 2273 01:33:39,800 --> 01:33:38,250 persecuted and they they all write and 2274 01:33:42,380 --> 01:33:39,810 teach the same thing that we teach and I 2275 01:33:44,930 --> 01:33:42,390 mean I think that really undercuts the 2276 01:33:47,240 --> 01:33:44,940 absurdity of this whole view okay well 2277 01:33:48,590 --> 01:33:47,250 here let me come at it from a different 2278 01:33:51,290 --> 01:33:48,600 angle you and I just interviewed this 2279 01:33:54,680 --> 01:33:51,300 guy 88 year old anglican priest 2280 01:33:57,910 --> 01:33:54,690 his name is Michael Cox right from all 2281 01:33:59,980 --> 01:33:57,920 outward appearances just a beautiful 2282 01:34:03,800 --> 01:33:59,990 spiritual being 2283 01:34:06,260 --> 01:34:03,810 Oxford trained very well-versed very a 2284 01:34:07,820 --> 01:34:06,270 very Christian guy I mean he's not he's 2285 01:34:11,330 --> 01:34:07,830 a progressive Christian but he's 2286 01:34:13,610 --> 01:34:11,340 certainly not you know fringe out there 2287 01:34:16,940 --> 01:34:13,620 as saying stuff that is completely 2288 01:34:20,150 --> 01:34:16,950 outside of the doctrine anyways his 2289 01:34:22,760 --> 01:34:20,160 experience is for the last 40 years in a 2290 01:34:25,730 --> 01:34:22,770 very synchronistic almost impossible to 2291 01:34:26,930 --> 01:34:25,740 explain way encounter these people that 2292 01:34:29,540 --> 01:34:26,940 claim to have this 2293 01:34:32,990 --> 01:34:29,550 virtual dilemma because they claim to be 2294 01:34:36,350 --> 01:34:33,000 channeling Stephen the martyr okay so 2295 01:34:38,300 --> 01:34:36,360 he's extremely skeptical Cox is at the 2296 01:34:39,740 --> 01:34:38,310 beginning he's like this close against a 2297 01:34:42,290 --> 01:34:39,750 lot of the things he's been trained a 2298 01:34:45,530 --> 01:34:42,300 lot of things he knows but he's also 2299 01:34:48,260 --> 01:34:45,540 like said an Oxford trained theologian 2300 01:34:51,620 --> 01:34:48,270 and he knows his stuff and he then tries 2301 01:34:54,200 --> 01:34:51,630 to test this channeled entity by asking 2302 01:34:58,729 --> 01:34:54,210 all these questions about early Greek 2303 01:35:01,610 --> 01:34:58,739 and and and in all this investigation 2304 01:35:03,110 --> 01:35:01,620 into the Athenian wine tradition versus 2305 01:35:05,720 --> 01:35:03,120 you know all this stuff that no one 2306 01:35:07,100 --> 01:35:05,730 especially this couple from Kent twos I 2307 01:35:08,720 --> 01:35:07,110 don't want to say they're not educated 2308 01:35:10,280 --> 01:35:08,730 but they're certainly not educated in 2309 01:35:13,490 --> 01:35:10,290 that way they would have no way of 2310 01:35:15,560 --> 01:35:13,500 knowing so this guy has this 40 years of 2311 01:35:21,290 --> 01:35:15,570 experience like I say he's 88 years old 2312 01:35:24,439 --> 01:35:21,300 and I he has a different belief about 2313 01:35:26,570 --> 01:35:24,449 how to process his Christian experience 2314 01:35:30,560 --> 01:35:26,580 and it's much more open it's much more 2315 01:35:33,200 --> 01:35:30,570 broadly I don't want a spiritual if you 2316 01:35:35,689 --> 01:35:33,210 will spiritual but not religious the big 2317 01:35:38,720 --> 01:35:35,699 tent Christianity a very big tent where 2318 01:35:40,850 --> 01:35:38,730 hey my reality of Christianity might be 2319 01:35:44,150 --> 01:35:40,860 true but it certainly doesn't exclude 2320 01:35:47,180 --> 01:35:44,160 all these other experiences of the 2321 01:35:51,560 --> 01:35:47,190 divine the experiences of God the 2322 01:35:54,290 --> 01:35:51,570 experiences of Spirit in a broad sense 2323 01:35:55,820 --> 01:35:54,300 Jay what do you think about that well 2324 01:35:57,680 --> 01:35:55,830 I've said I don't know just individual 2325 01:35:58,070 --> 01:35:57,690 so I don't know right but you get the 2326 01:35:59,900 --> 01:35:58,080 point 2327 01:36:02,630 --> 01:35:59,910 many diving boards into the pool rather 2328 01:36:04,340 --> 01:36:02,640 than the primacy of Christianity let me 2329 01:36:06,920 --> 01:36:04,350 just say from the outset that that I 2330 01:36:08,420 --> 01:36:06,930 think one of the things that is unique 2331 01:36:12,200 --> 01:36:08,430 to the approach that I take which I 2332 01:36:14,540 --> 01:36:12,210 believe to be more consistent with the 2333 01:36:18,160 --> 01:36:14,550 tradition that I believe is that we 2334 01:36:21,560 --> 01:36:18,170 don't make a divide between reason logic 2335 01:36:24,620 --> 01:36:21,570 objectivity evidence science and 2336 01:36:26,870 --> 01:36:24,630 theology this is another presupposition 2337 01:36:29,570 --> 01:36:26,880 of the modern world that that that's 2338 01:36:31,850 --> 01:36:29,580 like the realm of the leap of faith and 2339 01:36:33,410 --> 01:36:31,860 it's all fuzzy and we don't really know 2340 01:36:35,120 --> 01:36:33,420 but then you know we have hard science 2341 01:36:37,250 --> 01:36:35,130 over here on the other side I don't 2342 01:36:39,770 --> 01:36:37,260 believe that you can actually read a lot 2343 01:36:40,490 --> 01:36:39,780 of prominent Orthodox theologians who 2344 01:36:42,740 --> 01:36:40,500 will kind of 2345 01:36:46,430 --> 01:36:42,750 that notion so what I'm going to say to 2346 01:36:49,010 --> 01:36:46,440 that is number one I don't have no idea 2347 01:36:51,740 --> 01:36:49,020 of this person is really channeling 2348 01:36:54,080 --> 01:36:51,750 someone if they are they claim to be 2349 01:36:55,970 --> 01:36:54,090 channeling some spirit that's obviously 2350 01:36:59,020 --> 01:36:55,980 completely contrary to the Orthodox 2351 01:37:03,110 --> 01:36:59,030 tradition and Steve and water martyr is 2352 01:37:04,370 --> 01:37:03,120 part part of our tradition as well as 2353 01:37:06,070 --> 01:37:04,380 the first thousand years of Western 2354 01:37:08,570 --> 01:37:06,080 Christianity so that's completely 2355 01:37:11,360 --> 01:37:08,580 contradictory and incoherent - you know 2356 01:37:13,100 --> 01:37:11,370 what what the the Orthodox tradition is 2357 01:37:14,390 --> 01:37:13,110 the Christian tradition is so no so that 2358 01:37:16,220 --> 01:37:14,400 makes absolutely no sense they'll be 2359 01:37:18,770 --> 01:37:16,230 like saying oh I've talked to Lucifer 2360 01:37:19,580 --> 01:37:18,780 he's a good guy now so let's rewrite our 2361 01:37:21,140 --> 01:37:19,590 theology 2362 01:37:24,170 --> 01:37:21,150 I mean you we don't determine our 2363 01:37:26,750 --> 01:37:24,180 theology based on some random person's 2364 01:37:28,400 --> 01:37:26,760 existential experiences and you're 2365 01:37:32,030 --> 01:37:28,410 saying the contradiction is the 2366 01:37:34,760 --> 01:37:32,040 channeling spirits is not something that 2367 01:37:37,250 --> 01:37:34,770 you could accept kind of thing is that 2368 01:37:39,800 --> 01:37:37,260 the rub if you will I'm not saying that 2369 01:37:42,410 --> 01:37:39,810 it's not real I'm saying that number one 2370 01:37:44,270 --> 01:37:42,420 why would you believe a spirit I mean I 2371 01:37:46,490 --> 01:37:44,280 mean everybody wants to sort of laugh 2372 01:37:48,650 --> 01:37:46,500 and sort of mock at what's in the Bible 2373 01:37:50,600 --> 01:37:48,660 but the Bible has said for you know 2374 01:37:53,060 --> 01:37:50,610 millennia that channeling spirits is 2375 01:37:54,830 --> 01:37:53,070 real and the spirits lie so if you want 2376 01:37:56,150 --> 01:37:54,840 to believe the spirits then you know but 2377 01:37:58,850 --> 01:37:56,160 that's on you and I think it's pretty 2378 01:38:01,370 --> 01:37:58,860 foolish or it's just a bunch of fraud 2379 01:38:02,980 --> 01:38:01,380 and scammer II so I know I have known 2380 01:38:05,900 --> 01:38:02,990 I'd have no web knowing which it is 2381 01:38:08,450 --> 01:38:05,910 right but and and then how so here is 2382 01:38:11,960 --> 01:38:08,460 really the crux of it right so how might 2383 01:38:15,080 --> 01:38:11,970 one investigate that in a way that you 2384 01:38:16,550 --> 01:38:15,090 could accept in a in a scientific way if 2385 01:38:18,770 --> 01:38:16,560 you would back to the very beginning of 2386 01:38:20,840 --> 01:38:18,780 this long discussion that you've been 2387 01:38:22,100 --> 01:38:20,850 very gracious about I do appreciate it 2388 01:38:25,550 --> 01:38:22,110 because I know some of this stuff is 2389 01:38:27,860 --> 01:38:25,560 challenging but if one want to explore 2390 01:38:29,240 --> 01:38:27,870 whether or not that's true or false see 2391 01:38:32,300 --> 01:38:29,250 this is the problem I think people have 2392 01:38:34,280 --> 01:38:32,310 it said well if it's just a doctrinal 2393 01:38:37,580 --> 01:38:34,290 thing that well here's the book and the 2394 01:38:40,880 --> 01:38:37,590 book says all these things are bad you 2395 01:38:42,500 --> 01:38:40,890 know that seems unsatisfying to a lot we 2396 01:38:44,360 --> 01:38:42,510 don't believe that our book it's that 2397 01:38:47,270 --> 01:38:44,370 it's just some law book and external 2398 01:38:50,660 --> 01:38:47,280 rulebook that you know you check off the 2399 01:38:52,280 --> 01:38:50,670 checks checklist the book is the means 2400 01:38:54,410 --> 01:38:52,290 by which you have an existential 2401 01:38:56,120 --> 01:38:54,420 relationship with God 2402 01:38:58,459 --> 01:38:56,130 so we don't put a divide we don't we 2403 01:39:00,050 --> 01:38:58,469 don't we don't get put into dialectics 2404 01:39:03,260 --> 01:39:00,060 at least that's our goal is to not be 2405 01:39:05,689 --> 01:39:03,270 put into faith versus reason objectivity 2406 01:39:07,100 --> 01:39:05,699 versus subjectivity Orthodox theology is 2407 01:39:10,910 --> 01:39:07,110 all about kind of transcending 2408 01:39:15,080 --> 01:39:10,920 dialectics so we wouldn't say that the 2409 01:39:16,580 --> 01:39:15,090 reason why something is wrong is just 2410 01:39:19,240 --> 01:39:16,590 simply because it's in a rulebook but 2411 01:39:21,950 --> 01:39:19,250 rather that the rulebook reflects the 2412 01:39:24,410 --> 01:39:21,960 architecture of the world itself so if 2413 01:39:26,270 --> 01:39:24,420 God created the world I think he did and 2414 01:39:28,129 --> 01:39:26,280 he kind of set these rules and 2415 01:39:30,379 --> 01:39:28,139 boundaries and principles in play for a 2416 01:39:32,540 --> 01:39:30,389 reason the rulebook is merely a 2417 01:39:35,450 --> 01:39:32,550 reflection of you know like you know you 2418 01:39:37,070 --> 01:39:35,460 tell your your kid not to put his hand 2419 01:39:38,720 --> 01:39:37,080 on the stove there's a reason why it's 2420 01:39:41,600 --> 01:39:38,730 not just because you're being arbitrary 2421 01:39:44,180 --> 01:39:41,610 or capricious it's because you don't 2422 01:39:45,770 --> 01:39:44,190 want him to you know harm himself but 2423 01:39:48,109 --> 01:39:45,780 putting his hand on the eye the stove 2424 01:39:50,270 --> 01:39:48,119 right and we view it the same way I mean 2425 01:39:53,689 --> 01:39:50,280 the the principles that are in Scripture 2426 01:39:56,300 --> 01:39:53,699 are there for our good and they are 2427 01:39:59,570 --> 01:39:56,310 actually health and life as Psalm 110 2428 01:40:01,760 --> 01:39:59,580 says so so when you're contacting 2429 01:40:04,910 --> 01:40:01,770 spirits you know you just look at second 2430 01:40:07,310 --> 01:40:04,920 Samuel when I've seen a First Samuel 16 2431 01:40:09,410 --> 01:40:07,320 or 17 whenever it is when soul goes and 2432 01:40:12,290 --> 01:40:09,420 tries to contact spirits and he goes to 2433 01:40:14,060 --> 01:40:12,300 the Witch of Endor and she pulls up the 2434 01:40:16,850 --> 01:40:14,070 spirit for him and you know Saul gets 2435 01:40:18,680 --> 01:40:16,860 cursed and it leads to to suicide so I 2436 01:40:20,959 --> 01:40:18,690 believe that's there for a reason as a 2437 01:40:23,990 --> 01:40:20,969 principle to to warn us now if you want 2438 01:40:25,640 --> 01:40:24,000 to be adventurous and risk you know 2439 01:40:27,709 --> 01:40:25,650 these kinds of things that's that's 2440 01:40:29,419 --> 01:40:27,719 that's your decision but I would say it 2441 01:40:32,810 --> 01:40:29,429 would be very foolish dude just just in 2442 01:40:34,970 --> 01:40:32,820 the same way as you know people who do 2443 01:40:37,939 --> 01:40:34,980 drugs or LSD or these kinds of things or 2444 01:40:40,669 --> 01:40:37,949 for for spiritual purposes you're just 2445 01:40:42,020 --> 01:40:40,679 being foolish and I can sit there I 2446 01:40:44,570 --> 01:40:42,030 could say that from experience I've done 2447 01:40:47,450 --> 01:40:44,580 LSD many times I know what happens I 2448 01:40:50,180 --> 01:40:47,460 have a direct existential experience of 2449 01:40:53,990 --> 01:40:50,190 the whole phenomena and and so I'm 2450 01:40:56,140 --> 01:40:54,000 speaking from you know from I speak from 2451 01:40:58,820 --> 01:40:56,150 experience not just from a quote rowboat 2452 01:41:00,890 --> 01:40:58,830 right but but J that's why I brought up 2453 01:41:04,129 --> 01:41:00,900 the case of Michael because I think it 2454 01:41:06,589 --> 01:41:04,139 does bring into sharp contrast what 2455 01:41:08,080 --> 01:41:06,599 we're talking about here the 88 years 2456 01:41:09,520 --> 01:41:08,090 old Anglican 2457 01:41:11,169 --> 01:41:09,530 priest who that really that's really 2458 01:41:12,910 --> 01:41:11,179 irrelevant though because you're asking 2459 01:41:16,540 --> 01:41:12,920 a question no there's a question about 2460 01:41:19,120 --> 01:41:16,550 about something being morally true or 2461 01:41:20,649 --> 01:41:19,130 spiritually true or good and you're kind 2462 01:41:22,120 --> 01:41:20,659 of like kind of you're kind of stacking 2463 01:41:23,350 --> 01:41:22,130 on like these other things about I'm 2464 01:41:25,500 --> 01:41:23,360 being 88 that's good but then they 2465 01:41:27,700 --> 01:41:25,510 realize that's really irrelevant to the 2466 01:41:30,550 --> 01:41:27,710 truth and that'd be like saying well Joe 2467 01:41:32,890 --> 01:41:30,560 at Wells you know he studied this for a 2468 01:41:34,060 --> 01:41:32,900 long time therefore it's true but then 2469 01:41:37,899 --> 01:41:34,070 they really have nothing to do with it 2470 01:41:40,209 --> 01:41:37,909 well it's not that it it's not that 2471 01:41:42,820 --> 01:41:40,219 cut-and-dried isn't right I mean we 2472 01:41:45,370 --> 01:41:42,830 can't completely aboutö 2473 01:41:48,280 --> 01:41:45,380 Authority and at the same time we all in 2474 01:41:50,169 --> 01:41:48,290 our regular life look to people that 2475 01:41:51,910 --> 01:41:50,179 have investigated things and from a 2476 01:41:54,070 --> 01:41:51,920 scientific standpoint you know this gets 2477 01:41:56,640 --> 01:41:54,080 back to something that we kind of talked 2478 01:41:59,950 --> 01:41:56,650 about early on part of the atheistic 2479 01:42:01,720 --> 01:41:59,960 materialistic kind of shell game is to 2480 01:42:03,399 --> 01:42:01,730 say that experience doesn't matter and 2481 01:42:06,729 --> 01:42:03,409 that vesture experience clearly clouded 2482 01:42:09,100 --> 01:42:06,739 it and what I think what I think we can 2483 01:42:11,890 --> 01:42:09,110 do it and again the other thing that 2484 01:42:13,359 --> 01:42:11,900 they'll do with something like Michaels 2485 01:42:15,580 --> 01:42:13,369 experiences I said well that's anecdotal 2486 01:42:17,680 --> 01:42:15,590 you know that's just a one-off and of 2487 01:42:21,010 --> 01:42:17,690 course that's nonsense as well because 2488 01:42:23,500 --> 01:42:21,020 if we collect enough of these anecdotal 2489 01:42:25,930 --> 01:42:23,510 accounts they no longer become anecdotal 2490 01:42:28,300 --> 01:42:25,940 they become a body of evidence that can 2491 01:42:31,540 --> 01:42:28,310 be analyzed with all the scientific 2492 01:42:33,850 --> 01:42:31,550 tools so it should yeah the real point I 2493 01:42:35,350 --> 01:42:33,860 think with Michaels case and the reason 2494 01:42:37,479 --> 01:42:35,360 that I bring him up and keep stressing 2495 01:42:40,479 --> 01:42:37,489 that he's a 88 year old anglican priest 2496 01:42:42,700 --> 01:42:40,489 for docs retreat is his starting point 2497 01:42:45,520 --> 01:42:42,710 was very similar to yours right and it 2498 01:42:48,520 --> 01:42:45,530 still is he's not he's not someone who's 2499 01:42:50,979 --> 01:42:48,530 uh you know saying we need to completely 2500 01:42:53,470 --> 01:42:50,989 diverge from the Bible and he's not 2501 01:42:55,780 --> 01:42:53,480 someone who went out seeking uh this 2502 01:42:57,250 --> 01:42:55,790 kind of spiritual encounter right I mean 2503 01:42:59,320 --> 01:42:57,260 just if you understood that understand 2504 01:43:01,209 --> 01:42:59,330 the story and you don't but I mean he 2505 01:43:03,459 --> 01:43:01,219 had he was counseling someone who came 2506 01:43:06,490 --> 01:43:03,469 to him and said hey I don't know what to 2507 01:43:08,020 --> 01:43:06,500 do with this because this this thing is 2508 01:43:09,700 --> 01:43:08,030 happening this husband and wife says 2509 01:43:10,899 --> 01:43:09,710 that this husband's this wife says my 2510 01:43:12,640 --> 01:43:10,909 husband's waking up in the middle of the 2511 01:43:14,770 --> 01:43:12,650 night and he said you know his first 2512 01:43:18,820 --> 01:43:14,780 reaction was to say hey this is bad we 2513 01:43:20,410 --> 01:43:18,830 shouldn't do this but then he test it 2514 01:43:21,970 --> 01:43:20,420 and he'll quote you you know if you 2515 01:43:23,560 --> 01:43:21,980 there's no need to debate 2516 01:43:25,210 --> 01:43:23,570 he have you ever read counts of 2517 01:43:27,850 --> 01:43:25,220 exorcisms I don't understand why this 2518 01:43:29,320 --> 01:43:27,860 doesn't just sound like something dark I 2519 01:43:30,340 --> 01:43:29,330 mean I again I don't know this case but 2520 01:43:32,350 --> 01:43:30,350 that's what I'm saying 2521 01:43:35,260 --> 01:43:32,360 it doesn't to Michael Michaels familiar 2522 01:43:37,300 --> 01:43:35,270 with all of that Michael it has will 2523 01:43:39,850 --> 01:43:37,310 quote you scripture after scripture in 2524 01:43:41,950 --> 01:43:39,860 the same way that you do to say that you 2525 01:43:44,080 --> 01:43:41,960 know this is the way to kind of proceed 2526 01:43:45,760 --> 01:43:44,090 and this is the way to properly test the 2527 01:43:47,760 --> 01:43:45,770 spirits and that we have a long 2528 01:43:49,510 --> 01:43:47,770 tradition of these kind of 2529 01:43:52,900 --> 01:43:49,520 communications whether we call them 2530 01:43:54,910 --> 01:43:52,910 channeling or not so I mean but the real 2531 01:43:56,620 --> 01:43:54,920 point the real points if we can pull it 2532 01:43:59,710 --> 01:43:56,630 outside of this is which is what I'm 2533 01:44:01,810 --> 01:43:59,720 trying to do here is to say how can we 2534 01:44:05,680 --> 01:44:01,820 know what we know and I'm uncomfortable 2535 01:44:10,420 --> 01:44:05,690 with the the idea that we can't know 2536 01:44:13,210 --> 01:44:10,430 this stuff in any way other than you 2537 01:44:14,920 --> 01:44:13,220 know if I'm following a certain doctrine 2538 01:44:17,050 --> 01:44:14,930 then I can't step out of my doctrine I 2539 01:44:19,780 --> 01:44:17,060 can't dare kind of challenge that 2540 01:44:21,760 --> 01:44:19,790 because it's going to conflict with what 2541 01:44:23,110 --> 01:44:21,770 I already know when I'm certain of and I 2542 01:44:32,050 --> 01:44:23,120 just don't think that's the way things 2543 01:44:35,440 --> 01:44:32,060 are progressing well scientifically ok 2544 01:44:39,100 --> 01:44:35,450 so just because you can experience or 2545 01:44:40,570 --> 01:44:39,110 investigate something does it it doesn't 2546 01:44:42,400 --> 01:44:40,580 necessarily mean that you should I mean 2547 01:44:44,470 --> 01:44:42,410 so for example let's say that let's say 2548 01:44:46,600 --> 01:44:44,480 that I could have an extremely intense 2549 01:44:51,640 --> 01:44:46,610 maybe even spiritual experience by 2550 01:44:54,760 --> 01:44:51,650 taking some buzz very hardcore drug that 2551 01:44:56,440 --> 01:44:54,770 might mess me up that mean why would you 2552 01:45:01,450 --> 01:44:56,450 do that I mean it just seems foolish to 2553 01:45:02,979 --> 01:45:01,460 me I mean maybe if you're a a sucker for 2554 01:45:04,990 --> 01:45:02,989 danger or something and you just want 2555 01:45:06,490 --> 01:45:05,000 you you're out for the thrills right I 2556 01:45:09,940 --> 01:45:06,500 mean it I just don't get the 2557 01:45:12,340 --> 01:45:09,950 argumentation here of why what what 2558 01:45:15,850 --> 01:45:12,350 yours what I'm supposed to be getting 2559 01:45:20,560 --> 01:45:15,860 from this that that you feel like a a 2560 01:45:25,210 --> 01:45:20,570 revealed text would limit you in what 2561 01:45:26,740 --> 01:45:25,220 could be could be experienced but yeah I 2562 01:45:28,990 --> 01:45:26,750 mean but I think that limits are good I 2563 01:45:31,510 --> 01:45:29,000 mean we all have limits you put limits 2564 01:45:33,520 --> 01:45:31,520 on your children like what would you if 2565 01:45:35,800 --> 01:45:33,530 your son turned to you and said hey dad 2566 01:45:37,930 --> 01:45:35,810 I think you're being a jerk and you 2567 01:45:40,360 --> 01:45:37,940 won't let me you know play on the street 2568 01:45:43,750 --> 01:45:40,370 and you won't let me everyday he says 2569 01:45:47,140 --> 01:45:43,760 both of them say that so you know I view 2570 01:45:49,360 --> 01:45:47,150 God as a wise father protector I don't 2571 01:45:50,980 --> 01:45:49,370 think that and again it's not just 2572 01:45:52,600 --> 01:45:50,990 rulebook it's based on my own 2573 01:45:55,540 --> 01:45:52,610 experiences I mean at the times that I 2574 01:45:57,130 --> 01:45:55,550 have you know decided to do whatever the 2575 01:45:58,330 --> 01:45:57,140 heck I wanted to in my life and I just 2576 01:46:00,700 --> 01:45:58,340 don't care about this stuff anymore I 2577 01:46:02,740 --> 01:46:00,710 always end up regretting that I always 2578 01:46:04,930 --> 01:46:02,750 spend up you know man I shouldn't have 2579 01:46:06,700 --> 01:46:04,940 you know had that one iced and I 2580 01:46:08,200 --> 01:46:06,710 shouldn't have you know done that acid 2581 01:46:09,820 --> 01:46:08,210 you know back when I was 18 or 19 that 2582 01:46:13,960 --> 01:46:09,830 you know it was a very dangerous thing 2583 01:46:15,820 --> 01:46:13,970 to do you know so I guess in a way I 2584 01:46:18,820 --> 01:46:15,830 learned from the experiences but I think 2585 01:46:22,540 --> 01:46:18,830 it's just foolhardy to to think that you 2586 01:46:24,390 --> 01:46:22,550 can play with spiritual forces and you 2587 01:46:27,190 --> 01:46:24,400 know this is that this is a realm for 2588 01:46:30,580 --> 01:46:27,200 for just sort of playing around our 2589 01:46:33,690 --> 01:46:30,590 souls or our psyches are not made for 2590 01:46:36,610 --> 01:46:33,700 for playing around I think that you know 2591 01:46:37,120 --> 01:46:36,620 I'm not trying to be dour or puritanical 2592 01:46:40,660 --> 01:46:37,130 here 2593 01:46:44,470 --> 01:46:40,670 we're not Puritans but again you can 2594 01:46:47,380 --> 01:46:44,480 read many many people in our tradition 2595 01:46:49,210 --> 01:46:47,390 who have for many years experienced this 2596 01:46:52,210 --> 01:46:49,220 stuff and dealt with it in reality like 2597 01:46:54,430 --> 01:46:52,220 father Seraphim Rose you do detail these 2598 01:46:56,800 --> 01:46:54,440 experiences and you know I just think 2599 01:47:00,130 --> 01:46:56,810 you have to be careful and it's not 2600 01:47:01,990 --> 01:47:00,140 something that I would do okay I tell 2601 01:47:04,030 --> 01:47:02,000 you what we have heard that into the 2602 01:47:05,560 --> 01:47:04,040 ground and probably lost a lot of people 2603 01:47:06,820 --> 01:47:05,570 which is unfortunate because I want to 2604 01:47:08,530 --> 01:47:06,830 bring it back I don't I don't know I 2605 01:47:10,690 --> 01:47:08,540 mean I when I posted this I guarantee 2606 01:47:13,210 --> 01:47:10,700 that's going to get a lot of views okay 2607 01:47:16,240 --> 01:47:13,220 we'll see we'll see what is also going 2608 01:47:17,590 --> 01:47:16,250 to get you but you know what related to 2609 01:47:19,480 --> 01:47:17,600 that you know I heard a really 2610 01:47:22,000 --> 01:47:19,490 interesting point you made you said hey 2611 01:47:25,060 --> 01:47:22,010 I'd love to talk about philosophy and 2612 01:47:28,720 --> 01:47:25,070 theology more but let's face it when I 2613 01:47:30,580 --> 01:47:28,730 post a movie analysis it's kind of a 2614 01:47:33,310 --> 01:47:30,590 easier entry point and I get a lot more 2615 01:47:35,410 --> 01:47:33,320 views throughout I just found that found 2616 01:47:38,560 --> 01:47:35,420 that interesting do you want to comment 2617 01:47:40,660 --> 01:47:38,570 on that and and what do you face as kind 2618 01:47:42,970 --> 01:47:40,670 of a publisher in terms of where you 2619 01:47:45,820 --> 01:47:42,980 draw the line and how you keep your 2620 01:47:48,190 --> 01:47:45,830 audience staying with you and at the 2621 01:47:49,299 --> 01:47:48,200 same time cover topics that are really 2622 01:47:51,370 --> 01:47:49,309 important to you 2623 01:47:52,990 --> 01:47:51,380 well it's kind of easy because you know 2624 01:47:55,149 --> 01:47:53,000 I like film and I've always liked film 2625 01:47:57,370 --> 01:47:55,159 so I can always write on that topic you 2626 01:48:01,569 --> 01:47:57,380 know to kind of make sure that the the 2627 01:48:04,350 --> 01:48:01,579 engines running but most of the essays 2628 01:48:06,850 --> 01:48:04,360 and articles at my site are not movies 2629 01:48:10,479 --> 01:48:06,860 majority of them are our philosophy and 2630 01:48:13,870 --> 01:48:10,489 theology and geopolitics and some satire 2631 01:48:15,790 --> 01:48:13,880 and goofy stuff and I think there's only 2632 01:48:19,899 --> 01:48:15,800 about a hundred and twenty or thirty 2633 01:48:21,850 --> 01:48:19,909 film reviews so but the film review 2634 01:48:23,020 --> 01:48:21,860 stuff has really has really taken off 2635 01:48:24,700 --> 01:48:23,030 and has a great audience 2636 01:48:28,240 --> 01:48:24,710 and you were telling me at the beginning 2637 01:48:30,459 --> 01:48:28,250 that it's even spawned a TV series that 2638 01:48:32,200 --> 01:48:30,469 you're involved with right right yeah I 2639 01:48:34,540 --> 01:48:32,210 mean it that's what led to the book and 2640 01:48:35,770 --> 01:48:34,550 that's what led to you know the TV show 2641 01:48:38,109 --> 01:48:35,780 so you're right about that I mean it 2642 01:48:41,049 --> 01:48:38,119 definitely is the like I said it's the 2643 01:48:42,729 --> 01:48:41,059 engine of the website but I don't really 2644 01:48:45,310 --> 01:48:42,739 have a plan the way I do I just kind of 2645 01:48:47,200 --> 01:48:45,320 go with what I'm into what I feel like 2646 01:48:48,850 --> 01:48:47,210 writing about what's maybe what's 2647 01:48:50,560 --> 01:48:48,860 trending what movies are coming out you 2648 01:48:53,290 --> 01:48:50,570 know like aliens coming out and so I've 2649 01:48:55,089 --> 01:48:53,300 been writing and talking about Ridley 2650 01:48:58,060 --> 01:48:55,099 Scott stuff lately 2651 01:49:00,220 --> 01:48:58,070 but yeah so the TV show will be me and J 2652 01:49:04,689 --> 01:49:00,230 Whedon er who's kind of known for his 2653 01:49:08,189 --> 01:49:04,699 Kubrick documentaries and we got 2654 01:49:10,959 --> 01:49:08,199 together and basically put together a 2655 01:49:15,220 --> 01:49:10,969 thing I want to do 17 episodes for the 2656 01:49:16,660 --> 01:49:15,230 first season which is covering a lot not 2657 01:49:17,830 --> 01:49:16,670 everything in my book but some of the 2658 01:49:20,020 --> 01:49:17,840 stuff that's in my book so we're going 2659 01:49:21,700 --> 01:49:20,030 to be dealing with Blade Runner the 2660 01:49:25,419 --> 01:49:21,710 alien Series x-files 2661 01:49:26,919 --> 01:49:25,429 Eyes Wide Shut 2001 Space Odyssey a lot 2662 01:49:28,870 --> 01:49:26,929 of that kind of stuff for the first 17 2663 01:49:31,810 --> 01:49:28,880 episodes and then if that does well 2664 01:49:33,399 --> 01:49:31,820 we'll they'll work her up another 22 2665 01:49:36,760 --> 01:49:33,409 episodes and this will this will be on 2666 01:49:39,760 --> 01:49:36,770 the Gaia network which is streaming and 2667 01:49:41,740 --> 01:49:39,770 it's also on Apple TV Roku Amazon Prime 2668 01:49:43,510 --> 01:49:41,750 and I think on some satellite and cable 2669 01:49:45,970 --> 01:49:43,520 networks too you know you're telling me 2670 01:49:47,919 --> 01:49:45,980 high production value kind of a Siskel 2671 01:49:49,870 --> 01:49:47,929 and Ebert thing and you have a lot of 2672 01:49:52,649 --> 01:49:49,880 clips and stuff like that that really we 2673 01:49:55,359 --> 01:49:52,659 do yeah that took me about a month to 2674 01:49:56,859 --> 01:49:55,369 get all the clips together for the first 2675 01:49:58,209 --> 01:49:56,869 season and it was a lot of work because 2676 01:49:59,589 --> 01:49:58,219 you have to you know kind of get 2677 01:50:00,580 --> 01:49:59,599 everything passed through lawyers and 2678 01:50:02,500 --> 01:50:00,590 you have to tell them what you're going 2679 01:50:03,160 --> 01:50:02,510 to say it's exciting I can't wait to 2680 01:50:05,860 --> 01:50:03,170 watch it what is 2681 01:50:07,810 --> 01:50:05,870 the release date for that is that well I 2682 01:50:09,280 --> 01:50:07,820 mean we're just in production now and so 2683 01:50:11,169 --> 01:50:09,290 it'll probably be in the post production 2684 01:50:12,700 --> 01:50:11,179 process for a few months so it'll 2685 01:50:15,850 --> 01:50:12,710 probably I don't know three three months 2686 01:50:17,290 --> 01:50:15,860 from now maybe you know if you follow my 2687 01:50:18,729 --> 01:50:17,300 work you know obviously all they'll be 2688 01:50:22,030 --> 01:50:18,739 promoting it pretty heavily so you'll 2689 01:50:24,760 --> 01:50:22,040 know okay but uh um yeah I don't I don't 2690 01:50:27,310 --> 01:50:24,770 have any exact date on that but but ya 2691 01:50:29,590 --> 01:50:27,320 know we have a I I was kind of blown 2692 01:50:31,930 --> 01:50:29,600 away when I flew up there and last week 2693 01:50:34,060 --> 01:50:31,940 and walked into the studio and they have 2694 01:50:35,979 --> 01:50:34,070 this big warehouse that's you know it's 2695 01:50:41,080 --> 01:50:35,989 got several sets in it and then this is 2696 01:50:42,910 --> 01:50:41,090 this giant projector with a big a big 2697 01:50:44,620 --> 01:50:42,920 fancy theater in the background and then 2698 01:50:46,720 --> 01:50:44,630 it's it's J and I kind of sitting in 2699 01:50:48,459 --> 01:50:46,730 director's chairs you know kind of face 2700 01:50:52,930 --> 01:50:48,469 to face and then we kind of go back and 2701 01:50:54,669 --> 01:50:52,940 forth and it's it's an exchange process 2702 01:50:56,260 --> 01:50:54,679 you know it's like we play the clip and 2703 01:50:58,689 --> 01:50:56,270 then you know he comments I come in 2704 01:50:59,950 --> 01:50:58,699 there probably be some disagreements and 2705 01:51:02,740 --> 01:50:59,960 kind of debate at times which will be 2706 01:51:04,630 --> 01:51:02,750 fun and but yeah you're exactly right 2707 01:51:05,370 --> 01:51:04,640 it's basically Siskel and Ebert on acid 2708 01:51:09,820 --> 01:51:05,380 is how I put it 2709 01:51:12,700 --> 01:51:09,830 acid it tell me this what about book 2710 01:51:16,000 --> 01:51:12,710 projects super successful with esoteric 2711 01:51:17,950 --> 01:51:16,010 Hollywood any any follow-up to that or 2712 01:51:20,380 --> 01:51:17,960 other Brooke book projects coming well I 2713 01:51:22,570 --> 01:51:20,390 mean that you know there's probably 2714 01:51:25,140 --> 01:51:22,580 three or four books worth of material at 2715 01:51:27,459 --> 01:51:25,150 my side already written so I mean it I 2716 01:51:30,010 --> 01:51:27,469 guess I've just kind of been waiting to 2717 01:51:32,950 --> 01:51:30,020 see what would happen it's only been 2718 01:51:35,740 --> 01:51:32,960 four months so I'll probably probably 2719 01:51:38,650 --> 01:51:35,750 just wait and see what happens and maybe 2720 01:51:40,330 --> 01:51:38,660 do a sequel or you know I'd like to kind 2721 01:51:43,990 --> 01:51:40,340 of branch out into some other territory 2722 01:51:47,020 --> 01:51:44,000 and I might put something out to dealing 2723 01:51:50,169 --> 01:51:47,030 with metaphysics and philosophy and that 2724 01:51:52,540 --> 01:51:50,179 kind of stuff too just because I mean I 2725 01:51:54,220 --> 01:51:52,550 enjoy film but I don't you know that's 2726 01:51:56,620 --> 01:51:54,230 not my whole life I don't want to only 2727 01:51:59,350 --> 01:51:56,630 want to be a you know writing on movies 2728 01:52:02,169 --> 01:51:59,360 so I'd like to do some other stuff so 2729 01:52:04,510 --> 01:52:02,179 maybe maybe something philosophy related 2730 01:52:07,330 --> 01:52:04,520 well that certainly comes through in the 2731 01:52:08,919 --> 01:52:07,340 website anyone who goes to J's analysis 2732 01:52:10,419 --> 01:52:08,929 I would say you know everyone's going to 2733 01:52:12,370 --> 01:52:10,429 find something that they like there but 2734 01:52:15,820 --> 01:52:12,380 that's not really the case but you will 2735 01:52:16,960 --> 01:52:15,830 find just a whole variety of stuff like 2736 01:52:19,310 --> 01:52:16,970 we've talked about 2737 01:52:20,930 --> 01:52:19,320 geopolitics metaphysics all sorts of 2738 01:52:23,570 --> 01:52:20,940 stuff so you're really to be 2739 01:52:27,020 --> 01:52:23,580 congratulated so glad that that voice of 2740 01:52:29,960 --> 01:52:27,030 yours is out there and our guest again 2741 01:52:32,300 --> 01:52:29,970 has been Jay Dyer from Jays analysis and 2742 01:52:34,820 --> 01:52:32,310 Jay just do I would say to there's a 2743 01:52:36,080 --> 01:52:34,830 vast archive I think people maybe they 2744 01:52:38,870 --> 01:52:36,090 don't realize that they're new to it I 2745 01:52:39,620 --> 01:52:38,880 mean there's years of you know hundreds 2746 01:52:41,930 --> 01:52:39,630 of articles 2747 01:52:43,310 --> 01:52:41,940 oh it's overwhelming it's overwhelming 2748 01:52:45,580 --> 01:52:43,320 and prepping for this interview I was 2749 01:52:48,350 --> 01:52:45,590 like gee where do you where do you begin 2750 01:52:49,760 --> 01:52:48,360 yeah and hitting about seven or eight 2751 01:52:51,620 --> 01:52:49,770 years ago it was just kind of me just 2752 01:52:53,630 --> 01:52:51,630 throwing up blog posts and then it kind 2753 01:52:55,820 --> 01:52:53,640 of turned into doing a little bit of 2754 01:52:58,340 --> 01:52:55,830 audio interviewing and then it turned 2755 01:53:00,080 --> 01:52:58,350 into longer form interviews and then it 2756 01:53:02,540 --> 01:53:00,090 turned into longer essays and then it 2757 01:53:04,490 --> 01:53:02,550 turned into you know video type stuff 2758 01:53:06,170 --> 01:53:04,500 and I guess that's just kind of natural 2759 01:53:08,630 --> 01:53:06,180 progression of what happens in 2760 01:53:13,190 --> 01:53:08,640 alternative media but but yeah I mean 2761 01:53:16,160 --> 01:53:13,200 there's over 100 essays there's excuse 2762 01:53:18,530 --> 01:53:16,170 me 100 interviews on audios that you can 2763 01:53:20,450 --> 01:53:18,540 listen to there's I forget how many 2764 01:53:22,430 --> 01:53:20,460 video reports I've done now in last year 2765 01:53:24,290 --> 01:53:22,440 and then there's you know there's 2766 01:53:26,180 --> 01:53:24,300 there's a wealth of stuff there great 2767 01:53:27,470 --> 01:53:26,190 and you may not agree but you'll you'll 2768 01:53:29,090 --> 01:53:27,480 definitely be challenged I think and 2769 01:53:30,590 --> 01:53:29,100 that's what I like to do is just really 2770 01:53:32,330 --> 01:53:30,600 challenge people to think that's kind of 2771 01:53:33,890 --> 01:53:32,340 the goal of the philosopher you know 2772 01:53:35,360 --> 01:53:33,900 that's what Socrates was doing was going 2773 01:53:39,080 --> 01:53:35,370 around kind of just challenging people 2774 01:53:41,510 --> 01:53:39,090 to think absolutely absolutely as as is 2775 01:53:44,600 --> 01:53:41,520 on this show we kind of have the skeptic 2776 01:53:47,330 --> 01:53:44,610 Coast principle question everything in 2777 01:53:50,510 --> 01:53:47,340 the Hindu traditions neti neti neti not 2778 01:53:53,510 --> 01:53:50,520 this not this not this I in a way you're 2779 01:53:55,040 --> 01:53:53,520 engaging in a similar kind of kind of 2780 01:53:57,740 --> 01:53:55,050 broad minded look at a lot of things 2781 01:53:59,540 --> 01:53:57,750 again great work and thanks so much for 2782 01:54:02,210 --> 01:53:59,550 joining me all right and if you would 2783 01:54:05,090 --> 01:54:02,220 just get the book from me okay yes again 2784 01:54:08,810 --> 01:54:05,100 for folks and a sign sign copy can't be 2785 01:54:13,080 --> 01:54:11,190 thanks again to Joy Dyer for joining me 2786 01:54:14,820 --> 01:54:13,090 today on skeptic oh I guess the one 2787 01:54:16,440 --> 01:54:14,830 question i tee up from this interview is 2788 01:54:20,370 --> 01:54:16,450 the one that i teed up in the opening 2789 01:54:23,900 --> 01:54:20,380 clip are some atheists secretly pedaling 2790 01:54:27,810 --> 01:54:23,910 and occulted watered-down satanic or 2791 01:54:30,690 --> 01:54:27,820 Luciferian theology is that in some 2792 01:54:32,490 --> 01:54:30,700 respects their endgame so that's the 2793 01:54:34,530 --> 01:54:32,500 question I'd love to hear any comments 2794 01:54:36,810 --> 01:54:34,540 you might have of course the place to do 2795 01:54:38,970 --> 01:54:36,820 it is through this sceptical website and 2796 01:54:40,920 --> 01:54:38,980 hey by the way while you're at the 2797 01:54:43,260 --> 01:54:40,930 website and you might want to check out 2798 01:54:45,030 --> 01:54:43,270 the skeptical forum I always encourage 2799 01:54:48,360 --> 01:54:45,040 people to do that and the skeptical 2800 01:54:51,420 --> 01:54:48,370 forum has a new kind of cool index that 2801 01:54:53,970 --> 01:54:51,430 laird one of the skeptic o4 members 2802 01:54:55,140 --> 01:54:53,980 created so I want you to check that out 2803 01:54:57,330 --> 01:54:55,150 too because you did a really nice job 2804 01:54:59,280 --> 01:54:57,340 and I appreciate it there's a link in 2805 01:55:01,560 --> 01:54:59,290 the show notes to the index that Laird 2806 01:55:03,780 --> 01:55:01,570 created as I mentioned previously I do 2807 01:55:05,760 --> 01:55:03,790 have a couple of interesting follow-ups 2808 01:55:08,640 --> 01:55:05,770 I think to this interview they'll be 2809 01:55:10,890 --> 01:55:08,650 coming out in the near future and I have 2810 01:55:13,260 --> 01:55:10,900 a number of other interesting shows as 2811 01:55:16,050 --> 01:55:13,270 well I do hope you stay with me for all 2812 01:55:18,930 --> 01:55:16,060 of that until next time take care and